diff --git a/book/2008-08.txt b/book/2008-08.txt index e62d238..46f175c 100644 --- a/book/2008-08.txt +++ b/book/2008-08.txt @@ -10620,7 +10620,7 @@ index 04a4914..377aa85 100644 +20080818 fxs src/input/ifthenelse.input added +20080818 tpd src/interp/setq.lisp add Fabio Stumbo +20080818 tpd readme add Fabio Stumbo -+20080818 fxs "Fabio Stumbo" (no known email) ++20080818 fxs Fabio Stumbo" (no known email) +20080818 tpd src/input/Makefile sqrt3.input added +20080818 rhx src/input/sqrt3.input added 20080818 tpd src/input/Makefile typetower.input added @@ -10636,7 +10636,7 @@ index b2e20ab..7735016 100644 "William Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" -"Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor Moss E. Sweedler" -"Eugene Surowitz" -+"Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" ++Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" +"Moss E. Sweedler Eugene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thomas" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" @@ -12095,7 +12095,7 @@ index f6e1c05..e9b34ec 100644 "William Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" -"Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor Moss E. Sweedler" -"Eugene Surowitz" -+"Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" ++Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" +"Moss E. Sweedler Eugene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thomas" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" diff --git a/book/2009-03.txt b/book/2009-03.txt index a60031e..255e3a1 100644 --- a/book/2009-03.txt +++ b/book/2009-03.txt @@ -34827,7 +34827,7 @@ nko" "Michael Richardson Renaud Rioboo Jean Rivlin" "Nicolas= Martin Rubey" "Philip Santas Alfred Scheerhorn Willia= m Schelter" "Gerhard Schneider Martin Schoenert Marshall Schor= " "Frithjof Schulze Fritz Schwarz Nick Simicich" "William = -Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" "Fabio Stumbo = +Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" Fabio Stumbo = Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" "Moss E. Sweedler Eug= ene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thoma= s" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" "Themos T= diff --git a/book/2009-04.txt b/book/2009-04.txt index 374f6fb..9e57528 100644 --- a/book/2009-04.txt +++ b/book/2009-04.txt @@ -11066,14 +11066,14 @@ index d83558f..09899d6 100644 " "Didier Deshommes Michael Dewar" "Jean Della Dora Gabriel Dos Reis Claire DiCrescendo" "Sam Dooley Lionel Ducos Martin Dunstan" "Brian Dupee Dominique Duval" "Robert Edwards Heow Eide-Goodman Lars Erickson" "Richard Fateman Bertfried Fauser Stuart Feldman" "Brian Ford Albrecht Fortenbacher George Frances" "Constantine Frangos Timothy Freeman Korrinn Fu" "Marc Gaetano Rudiger Gebauer Kathy Gerber" "Patricia Gianni Samantha Goldrich Holger Gollan" "Teresa Gomez-Diaz Laureano Gonzalez-Vega Stephen Gortler" "Johannes Grabmeier Matt Grayson Klaus Ebbe Grue" "James Griesmer Vladimir Grinberg Oswald Gschnitzer" "Jocelyn Guidry" "Steve Hague Satoshi Hamaguchi Mike Hansen" "Richard Harke Vilya Harvey Martin Hassner" "Arthur S. Hathaway Dan Hatton Waldek Hebisch" "Karl Hegb! loom Ralf Hemmecke Henderson" "Antoine Hers! en Gernot Hueber" "Pietro Iglio" "Alejandro Jakubi Richard Jenks" "Kai Kaminski Grant Keady Tony Kennedy" "Paul Kosinski Klaus Kusche Bernhard Kutzler" "Tim Lahey Larry Lambe Franz Lehner" "Frederic Lehobey Michel Levaud Howard Levy" "Liu Xiaojun Rudiger Loos Michael Lucks" "Richard Luczak" "Camm Maguire Francois Maltey Alasdair McAndrew" "Bob McElrath Michael McGettrick Ian Meikle" "David Mentre Victor S. Miller Gerard Milmeister" "Mohammed Mobarak H. Michael Moeller Michael Monagan" "Marc Moreno-Maza Scott Morrison Joel Moses" "Mark Murray" "William Naylor C. Andrew Neff John Nelder" "Godfrey Nolan Arthur Norman Jinzhong Niu" "Michael O'Connor Summat Oemrawsingh Kostas Oikonomou" "Humberto Ortiz-Zuazaga" "Julian A. Padget Bill Page ! - Susan Pelzel" "Michel Petitot Didier Pinchon Ayal Pinkus" "Jose Alfredo Portes" "Claude Quitte" "Arthur C. Ralfs Norman Ramsey Anatoly Raportirenko" "Michael Richardson Renaud Rioboo Jean Rivlin" "Nicolas Robidoux Simon Robinson Raymond Rogers" "Michael Rothstein Martin Rubey" "Philip Santas Alfred Scheerhorn William Schelter" "Gerhard Schneider Martin Schoenert Marshall Schor" "Frithjof Schulze Fritz Schwarz Nick Simicich" "William Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" "Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" "Moss E. Sweedler Eugene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thomas" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" "Themos T. Tsikas" "Gregory Vanuxem" "Bernhard Wall Stephen Watt Jaap Weel" "Juergen Weiss M. Weller Mark Wegman" "James ! + Susan Pelzel" "Michel Petitot Didier Pinchon Ayal Pinkus" "Jose Alfredo Portes" "Claude Quitte" "Arthur C. Ralfs Norman Ramsey Anatoly Raportirenko" "Michael Richardson Renaud Rioboo Jean Rivlin" "Nicolas Robidoux Simon Robinson Raymond Rogers" "Michael Rothstein Martin Rubey" "Philip Santas Alfred Scheerhorn William Schelter" "Gerhard Schneider Martin Schoenert Marshall Schor" "Frithjof Schulze Fritz Schwarz Nick Simicich" "William Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" "Moss E. Sweedler Eugene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thomas" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" "Themos T. Tsikas" "Gregory Vanuxem" "Bernhard Wall Stephen Watt Jaap Weel" "Juergen Weiss M. Weller Mark Wegman" "James ! Wen Thorsten Werther Michael Wester" "John! M. Wiley Berhard Will Clifton J. Williamson" "Stephen Wilson Shmuel Winograd Robert Wisbauer" "Sandra Wityak Waldemar Wiwianka Knut Wolf" "Clifford Yapp David Yun" "Vadim Zhytnikov Richard Zippel Evelyn Zoernack" "Bruno Zuercher Dan Zwillinger") +--RValue = ("An alphabetical listing of contributors to AXIOM:" "Cyril Alberga Roy Adler Christian Aistleitner" "Richard Anderson George Andrews S.J. Atkins" "Henry Baker Stephen Balzac Yurij Baransky" "David R. Barton Gerald Baumgartner Gilbert Baumslag" "Michael Becker Jay Belanger David Bindel" "Fred Blair Vladimir Bondarenko Mark Botch" "Alexandre Bouyer Peter A. Broadbery Martin Brock" "Manuel Bronstein Stephen Buchwald Florian Bundschuh" "Luanne Burns William Burge" "Quentin Carpent Robert Caviness Bruce Char" "Ondrej Certik Cheekai Chin David V. Chudnovsky" "Gregory V. Chudnovsky Josh Cohen Christophe Conil" "Don Coppersmith George Corliss Robert Corless" "Gary Cornell Meino Cramer Claire Di Crescenzo" "David Cyganski" "Timothy Daly Sr. Timothy Daly Jr.! James H. Davenport" "Didier Deshommes Michael Dewar" "Jean Della Dora Gabriel Dos Reis Claire DiCrescendo" "Sam Dooley Lionel Ducos Martin Dunstan" "Brian Dupee Dominique Duval" "Robert Edwards Heow Eide-Goodman Lars Erickson" "Richard Fateman Bertfried Fauser Stuart Feldman" "Brian Ford Albrecht Fortenbacher George Frances" "Constantine Frangos Timothy Freeman Korrinn Fu" "Marc Gaetano Rudiger Gebauer Kathy Gerber" "Patricia Gianni Samantha Goldrich Holger Gollan" "Teresa Gomez-Diaz Laureano Gonzalez-Vega Stephen Gortler" "Johannes Grabmeier Matt Grayson Klaus Ebbe Grue" "James Griesmer Vladimir Grinberg Oswald Gschnitzer" "Jocelyn Guidry" "Steve Hague Satoshi Hamaguchi Mike Hansen" "Richard Harke Vilya Harvey Martin Hassner" "Arthur S. Hathaway Dan Hatton W! aldek Hebisch" "Karl Hegbloom Ralf Hemmecke ! Henderson" "Antoine Hersen Gernot Hueber" "Pietro Iglio" "Alejandro Jakubi Richard Jenks" "Kai Kaminski Grant Keady Tony Kennedy" "Paul Kosinski Klaus Kusche Bernhard Kutzler" "Tim Lahey Larry Lambe Franz Lehner" "Frederic Lehobey Michel Levaud Howard Levy" "Liu Xiaojun Rudiger Loos Michael Lucks" "Richard Luczak" "Camm Maguire Francois Maltey Alasdair McAndrew" "Bob McElrath Michael McGettrick Ian Meikle" "David Mentre Victor S. Miller Gerard Milmeister" "Mohammed Mobarak H. Michael Moeller Michael Monagan" "Marc Moreno-Maza Scott Morrison Joel Moses" "Mark Murray" "William Naylor C. Andrew Neff John Nelder" "Godfrey Nolan Arthur Norman Jinzhong Niu" "Michael O'Connor Summat Oemrawsingh Kostas Oikonomou" "Humberto Ortiz-Zuazaga" "Julian A. Padget ! - Bill Page Susan Pelzel" "Michel Petitot Didier Pinchon Ayal Pinkus" "Jose Alfredo Portes" "Claude Quitte" "Arthur C. Ralfs Norman Ramsey Anatoly Raportirenko" "Michael Richardson Renaud Rioboo Jean Rivlin" "Nicolas Robidoux Simon Robinson Raymond Rogers" "Michael Rothstein Martin Rubey" "Philip Santas Alfred Scheerhorn William Schelter" "Gerhard Schneider Martin Schoenert Marshall Schor" "Frithjof Schulze Fritz Schwarz Nick Simicich" "William Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" "Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" "Moss E. Sweedler Eugene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thomas" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" "Themos T. Tsikas" "Gregory Vanuxem" "Bernhard Wall Stephen Watt Jaap Weel" "Juergen Weiss M. Weller ! + Bill Page Susan Pelzel" "Michel Petitot Didier Pinchon Ayal Pinkus" "Jose Alfredo Portes" "Claude Quitte" "Arthur C. Ralfs Norman Ramsey Anatoly Raportirenko" "Michael Richardson Renaud Rioboo Jean Rivlin" "Nicolas Robidoux Simon Robinson Raymond Rogers" "Michael Rothstein Martin Rubey" "Philip Santas Alfred Scheerhorn William Schelter" "Gerhard Schneider Martin Schoenert Marshall Schor" "Frithjof Schulze Fritz Schwarz Nick Simicich" "William Sit Elena Smirnova Jonathan Steinbach" Fabio Stumbo Christine Sundaresan Robert Sutor" "Moss E. Sweedler Eugene Surowitz" "Max Tegmark James Thatcher Balbir Thomas" "Mike Thomas Dylan Thurston Barry Trager" "Themos T. Tsikas" "Gregory Vanuxem" "Bernhard Wall Stephen Watt Jaap Weel" "Juergen Weiss M. Weller ! Mark Wegman" "James Wen Thorsten Werther ! Michael Wester" "John M. Wiley Berhard Will Clifton J. Williamson" "Stephen Wilson Shmuel Winograd Robert Wisbauer" "Sandra Wityak Waldemar Wiwianka Knut Wolf" "Clifford Yapp David Yun" "Vadim Zhytnikov Richard Zippel Evelyn Zoernack" "Bruno Zuercher Dan Zwillinger") --E 13 diff --git a/book/2012-01.txt b/book/2012-01.txt index b1521ec..ff4509b 100644 --- a/book/2012-01.txt +++ b/book/2012-01.txt @@ -1,11 +1,7 @@ \start +Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:55:04 -0500 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:55:04 -0500 - (Tim Daly's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:45:11 - -0600") - recognized. -Cc: list, gcl-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: read-from-string bug Thanks! Will post on this shortly. In the mean time, I have the @@ -37,14 +33,8 @@ Temporary directory for compiler files set to /tmp/ AHYP abbreviates category ArcHyperbolicFunctionCategory (1) -> - - - should be - - - camm@localhost:~/debian/axiom/axiom-20110301a/int/algebra$ ../../obj/linux/bin/interpsys GCL (GNU Common Lisp) 2.6.7 CLtL1 May 11 2011 20:18:12 Source License: LGPL(gcl,gmp), GPL(unexec,bfd,xgcl) @@ -120,29 +110,13 @@ Tim Daly writes: > The read-from-string calls read-preserving-whitespace > which wanders off to lsp/gcl_iolib.c > which is where you lost me. -> -> Tim Daly -> -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start +Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:41:56 -0500 From: Camm Maguire To: Bill Page - -Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:41:56 -0500 - (Bill Page's message of "Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:45:04 -0500") - recognized. -Cc: list, Udo Ott Udo Ott, - fricas-devel < > Subject: Re: Overflow +Cc: Udo Ott Greetings! Using GCL, you can expand the stacks at runtime using (setq si::*multiply-stacks* n), where n is typically some small positive power @@ -212,42 +186,11 @@ Bill Page writes: >> What can I do to allow more calls? >> >> Secend question: Is there a version of Axiom-XL for Ubuntu 64-Bit? ->> ->> Thank you for your help ->> ->> Sincerely yours, Udo Ott. ->> ->> ->> _______________________________________________ ->> Axiom-developer mailing list ->> list ->> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer ->> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=A9on?= Dutoit Leon Dutoit Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:40:16 -0500 - (=?utf-8?Q?=22L=C3=A9on?= Dutoit"'s message of "Sat, - 10 Dec 2011 12:56:08 +0000 (GMT)") - recognized. -Cc: "list" , - gcl-devel@gnu.org +From: Camm Maguire +To: Leon Dutoit Subject: Re: axiom and glibc-2.14 Greetings! Can you post a failing build log please? @@ -264,156 +207,79 @@ L=C3=A9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit writes: > To have rpc support the library "libtiprc" must be installed, but then at= the link stage "-ltirpc" should be added. > This is apparently not checked in the configure script in gcl-2.6.8pre4. -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - ---=20 -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 07:14:28 +0000 (GMT) -From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=E9on_Dutoit?= Leon Dutoit +From: Leon Dutoit To: Camm Maguire - boundary="-1223050046-584868119-1325574868=:60999" - recognized. -Cc: "list" , - "gcl-devel@gnu.org" Subject: Re : axiom and glibc-2.14 ----1223050046-584868119-1325574868=:60999 - -=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A De=A0: Camm Maguire =0A=C0=A0: L=E9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit =0ACc=A0: "axi= -om-developer@nongnu.org" ; gcl-devel@gnu.org = -=0AEnvoy=E9 le : Lundi 2 Janvier 2012 22h40=0AObjet=A0: Re: [Axiom-develope= -r] axiom and glibc-2.14=0A =0AGreetings!=A0 Can you post a failing build lo= -g please?=0A=0ATake care,=0A=0AL=E9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit writes:=0A= -=0A> Compilation of axiom fails on slackware64 (current) because in glibc-2= -.14 support of rpc has been suppressed.=0A>=0A> The problem is with gcl-2.6= -.8pre4 (and maybe after).=0A>=0A> To have rpc support the library "libtiprc= -" must be installed, but then at the link stage "-ltirpc" should be added.= -=0A> This is apparently not checked in the configure script in gcl-2.6.8pre= -4.=0A>=0A> _______________________________________________=0A> Axiom-develo= -per mailing list=0A> list=0A> https://lists.nongnu.or= -g/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer=0A=0A-- =0ACamm Maguire=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0= -=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 Camm Maguire= -=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=0A"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."=A0 --=A0 Baha'= -u'llah=0A=0A=0AI get this :=0A=0A=0Atouch raw_pre_gcl_map=0Agcc -o raw_pre_= -gcl /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/cfuns-c.o /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/socki= -o-c.o \=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -L.=A0 -Wl,-Map raw_pre_gcl_map=A0=A0 -lpre= -_gcl -lm=A0 -lc -lgclp /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/libspad.a =0A./libpre_gc= -l.a(funlink.o): In function `siGxdr_open':=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x112): undef= -ined reference to `xdrstdio_create'=0A./libpre_gcl.a(funlink.o): In functio= -n `siGxdr_read':=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x1e6): undefined reference to `xdr_dou= -ble'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x206): undefined reference to `xdr_float'=0Afunlin= -k.c:(.text+0x22e): undefined reference to `xdr_long'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x2= -7a): undefined reference to `xdr_short'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x282): undefine= -d reference to `xdr_float'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x2a6): undefined reference t= -o `xdr_array'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x2c2): undefined reference to `xdr_double= -'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x2d2): undefined reference to `xdr_long'=0A./libpre_g= -cl.a(funlink.o): In function `siGxdr_write':=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x385): und= -efined reference to `xdr_double'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x3a5): undefined refer= -ence to `xdr_float'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x3cd): undefined reference to `xdr_= -long'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x402): undefined reference to `xdr_short'=0Afunli= -nk.c:(.text+0x412): undefined reference to `xdr_float'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0= -x436): undefined reference to `xdr_array'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x452): undefi= -ned reference to `xdr_long'=0Afunlink.c:(.text+0x462): undefined reference = -to `xdr_double'=0Acollect2: ld returned 1 exit status=0Amake[4]: *** [raw_p= -re_gcl_map] Error 1=0Amake[4]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pr= -e4/unixport'=0Amake[3]: *** [unixport/saved_pre_gcl] Error 2=0Amake[3]: Lea= -ving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre4'=0A/bin/sh: line 5: unixport/sa= -ved_gcl: No such file or directory=0Amake[2]: *** [gcldir] Error 127=0Amake= -[2]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp'=0Amake[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2=0Ama= -ke[1]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom'=0Amake: *** [all] Error 2 ----1223050046-584868119-1325574868=:60999 - -

De : Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>
=C0 : L=E9on Dutoit <Leon Dutoit> <= -br>Cc : "axiom-develo= -per@nongnu.org" <list>; gcl-devel@gnu.org
= -Envoy=E9 le : Lundi 2 Janv= -ier 2012 22h40
Objet : Re: axiom and glibc-2.14
Greetings!= -  Can you - post a failing build log please?

Take care,

L=E9on Dutoit &l= -t;w= -cth241@yahoo.fr> writes:

> Compilation of axiom fails on s= -lackware64 (current) because in glibc-2.14 support of rpc has been suppress= -ed.
>
> The problem is with gcl-2.6.8pre4 (and maybe after).>
> To have rpc support the library "libtiprc" must be installed,= - but then at the link stage "-ltirpc" should be added.
> This is appa= -rently not checked in the configure script in gcl-2.6.8pre4.
>
>= -; _______________________________________________
> Axiom-developer m= -ailing list
> list
&g= -t; https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-develope= -r

--
Camm Maguire         = -;                 &= -nbsp; Camm Maguire
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"The earth is but one country= -, and mankind its citizens."  --  Baha'u'llah


I get th= -is :


touch raw_pre_gcl_map
gcc -o raw_pre_gcl /d1/axiom/obj/s= -lackware/lib/cfuns-c.o /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/sockio-c.o \
 &n= -bsp;      -L.  -Wl,-Map raw_pre_gcl_map = -  -lpre_gcl -lm  -lc -lgclp /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/libspad.a= -
./libpre_gcl.a(funlink.o): In function `siGxdr_open':
funlink.c:(.t= -ext+0x112): undefined reference to - `xdrstdio_create'
./libpre_gcl.a(funlink.o): In function `siGxdr_read':= -
funlink.c:(.text+0x1e6): undefined reference to `xdr_double'
funlink= -.c:(.text+0x206): undefined reference to `xdr_float'
funlink.c:(.text+0x= -22e): undefined reference to `xdr_long'
funlink.c:(.text+0x27a): undefin= -ed reference to `xdr_short'
funlink.c:(.text+0x282): undefined reference= - to `xdr_float'
funlink.c:(.text+0x2a6): undefined reference to `xdr_arr= -ay'
funlink.c:(.text+0x2c2): undefined reference to `xdr_double'
funl= -ink.c:(.text+0x2d2): undefined reference to `xdr_long'
./libpre_gcl.a(fu= -nlink.o): In function `siGxdr_write':
funlink.c:(.text+0x385): undefined= - reference to `xdr_double'
funlink.c:(.text+0x3a5): undefined reference = -to `xdr_float'
funlink.c:(.text+0x3cd): undefined reference to `xdr_long= -'
funlink.c:(.text+0x402): undefined reference to `xdr_short'
funlink= -.c:(.text+0x412): undefined reference to - `xdr_float'
funlink.c:(.text+0x436): undefined reference to `xdr_array'= -
funlink.c:(.text+0x452): undefined reference to `xdr_long'
funlink.c= -:(.text+0x462): undefined reference to `xdr_double'
collect2: ld returne= -d 1 exit status
make[4]: *** [raw_pre_gcl_map] Error 1
make[4]: Leavi= -ng directory `/d1/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre4/unixport'
make[3]: *** [unixpo= -rt/saved_pre_gcl] Error 2
make[3]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp/gcl-= -2.6.8pre4'
/bin/sh: line 5: unixport/saved_gcl: No such file or director= -y
make[2]: *** [gcldir] Error 127
make[2]: Leaving directory `/d1/axi= -om/lsp'
make[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2
make[1]: Leaving directory `/d1= -/axiom'
make: *** [all] Error 2

----1223050046-584868119-1325574868=:60999-- + +Greetings!=A0 Can you post a failing build lo= +g please? + +Take care, + +L=E9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit writes: += + +> Compilation of axiom fails on slackware64 (current) because in + glibc-2.14 support of rpc has been suppressed. +> The problem is with gcl-2.6.8pre4 (and maybe after). + +> To have rpc support the library "libtiprc" must be installed, but +> then at the link stage "-ltirpc" should be added. This is +> apparently not checked in the configure script in gcl-2.6.8pre4. + +I get this : + + +touch raw_pre_gcl_map +gcc -o raw_pre_= +gcl /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/cfuns-c.o /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/sockio-c.o \ +=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -L.=A0 -Wl,-Map raw_pre_gcl_map=A0=A0 -lpre_gcl -lm=A0 -lc -lgclp /d1/axiom/obj/slackware/lib/libspad.a +./libpre_gc= +l.a(funlink.o): In function `siGxdr_open': +funlink.c:(.text+0x112): undef= +ined reference to `xdrstdio_create' +./libpre_gcl.a(funlink.o): In functio= +n `siGxdr_read': +funlink.c:(.text+0x1e6): undefined reference to `xdr_double' +funlink.c:(.text+0x206): undefined reference to `xdr_float' +funlin= +k.c:(.text+0x22e): undefined reference to `xdr_long' +funlink.c:(.text+0x2= +7a): undefined reference to `xdr_short' +funlink.c:(.text+0x282): undefined reference to `xdr_float' +funlink.c:(.text+0x2a6): undefined reference to `xdr_array' +funlink.c:(.text+0x2c2): undefined reference to `xdr_double' +funlink.c:(.text+0x2d2): undefined reference to `xdr_long' +./libpre_gcl.a(funlink.o): In function `siGxdr_write': +funlink.c:(.text+0x385): undefined reference to `xdr_double' +funlink.c:(.text+0x3a5): undefined reference to `xdr_float' +funlink.c:(.text+0x3cd): undefined reference to `xdr_long' +funlink.c:(.text+0x402): undefined reference to `xdr_short' +funlink.c:(.text+0x412): undefined reference to `xdr_float' +funlink.c:(.text+0x436): undefined reference to `xdr_array' +funlink.c:(.text+0x452): undefined reference to `xdr_long' +funlink.c:(.text+0x462): undefined reference to `xdr_double' +collect2: ld returned 1 exit status +make[4]: *** [raw_pre_gcl_map] Error 1 +make[4]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre4/unixport' +make[3]: *** [unixport/saved_pre_gcl] Error 2 +make[3]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre4' +/bin/sh: line 5: unixport/saved_gcl: No such file or directory +make[2]: *** [gcldir] Error 127 +make[2]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom/lsp' +make[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2 +make[1]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom' +make: *** [all] Error 2 \start +Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:47:56 -0500 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:47:56 -0500 - (Tim Daly's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:45:11 - -0600") - recognized. -Cc: list, gcl-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: read-from-string bug Greetings! This looks right -- please try and let me know and I'll @@ -471,78 +337,52 @@ Tim Daly writes: > The read-from-string calls read-preserving-whitespace > which wanders off to lsp/gcl_iolib.c > which is where you lost me. -> -> Tim Daly -> -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=A9on?= Dutoit Leon Dutoit - <87ipkteqbj.fsf@maguirefamily.org> - <1325574868.60999.YahooMailNeo@web25808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:39:06 -0500 - (=?utf-8?Q?=22L=C3=A9on?= Dutoit"'s message of "Tue, 3 Jan 2012 07:14:28 - +0000 (GMT)") - recognized. -Cc: "list" , - "gcl-devel@gnu.org" +From: Camm Maguire +To: Leon Dutoit Subject: Re: Re : axiom and glibc-2.14 Greetings! Can you try the following to see if it works for you? Index: configure.in -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D +=================================================================== RCS file: /sources/gcl/gcl/configure.in,v retrieving revision 1.112.4.1.2.2.2.47.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2.4.64 diff -u -u -r1.112.4.1.2.2.2.47.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2.4.64 configure.in ---- configure.in 20 Jun 2011 15:41:52 -0000 1.112.4.1.2.2.2.47.2.3.2.1.4.2.= -4.2.4.64 +--- configure.in 20 Jun 2011 15:41:52 -0000 1.112.4.1.2.2.2.47.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2.4.64 +++ configure.in 3 Jan 2012 16:36:41 -0000 @@ -1038,6 +1038,11 @@ AC_SUBST(BUILD_BFD) fi -=20 + + +AC_CHECK_FUNC(xdr_double,, -+ AC_CHECK_LIB(tirpc,xdr_double,TLIBS=3D"$TLIBS -ltirpc",AC_MSG_ERROR([N= -eed xdr_double]))) ++ AC_CHECK_LIB(tirpc,xdr_double,TLIBS="$TLIBS -ltirpc",AC_MSG_ERROR([Need xdr_double]))) + + #AC_CONFIG_SUBDIRS($MY_SUBDIRS) -=20 + # Find where Data begins. This is used by the storage allocation Index: configure -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -RCS file: /sources/gcl/gcl/configure,v +========================== +========================== +================RCS file: /sources/gcl/gcl/configure,v retrieving revision 1.107.4.1.2.2.2.48.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2.4.64 diff -u -u -r1.107.4.1.2.2.2.48.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2.4.64 configure ---- configure 20 Jun 2011 15:41:48 -0000 1.107.4.1.2.2.2.48.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2= -.4.64 +--- configure 20 Jun 2011 15:41:48 -0000 1.107.4.1.2.2.2.48.2.3.2.1.4.2.4.2.4.64 +++ configure 3 Jan 2012 16:36:46 -0000 @@ -1801,6 +1801,73 @@ -=20 + } # ac_fn_c_check_member -=20 + +# ac_fn_c_check_func LINENO FUNC VAR +# ---------------------------------- +# Tests whether FUNC exists, setting the cache variable VAR accordingly +ac_fn_c_check_func () +{ -+ as_lineno=3D${as_lineno-"$1"} as_lineno_stack=3Das_lineno_stack=3D$as_li= -neno_stack ++ as_lineno=${as_lineno-"$1"} as_lineno_stack=as_lineno_stack=$as_lineno_stack + { $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: checking for $2" >&5 +$as_echo_n "checking for $2... " >&6; } +if eval \${$3+:} false; then : @@ -590,14 +430,14 @@ neno_stack +} +_ACEOF +if ac_fn_c_try_link "$LINENO"; then : -+ eval "$3=3Dyes" ++ eval "$3=yes" +else -+ eval "$3=3Dno" ++ eval "$3=no" +fi +rm -f core conftest.err conftest.$ac_objext \ + conftest$ac_exeext conftest.$ac_ext +fi -+eval ac_res=3D\$$3 ++eval ac_res=\$$3 + { $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: result: $ac_res" >&5 +$as_echo "$ac_res" >&6; } + eval $as_lineno_stack; ${as_lineno_stack:+:} unset as_lineno @@ -609,7 +449,7 @@ neno_stack # Tries to find the compile-time value of EXPR in a program that includes @@ -1978,73 +2045,6 @@ as_fn_set_status $ac_retval -=20 + } # ac_fn_c_compute_int - -# ac_fn_c_check_func LINENO FUNC VAR @@ -617,8 +457,7 @@ neno_stack -# Tests whether FUNC exists, setting the cache variable VAR accordingly -ac_fn_c_check_func () -{ -- as_lineno=3D${as_lineno-"$1"} as_lineno_stack=3Das_lineno_stack=3D$as_li= -neno_stack +- as_lineno=${as_lineno-"$1"} as_lineno_stack=as_lineno_stack=$as_lineno_stack - { $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: checking for $2" >&5 -$as_echo_n "checking for $2... " >&6; } -if eval \${$3+:} false; then : @@ -666,14 +505,14 @@ neno_stack -} -_ACEOF -if ac_fn_c_try_link "$LINENO"; then : -- eval "$3=3Dyes" +- eval "$3=yes" -else -- eval "$3=3Dno" +- eval "$3=no" -fi -rm -f core conftest.err conftest.$ac_objext \ - conftest$ac_exeext conftest.$ac_ext -fi --eval ac_res=3D\$$3 +-eval ac_res=\$$3 - { $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: result: $ac_res" >&5 -$as_echo "$ac_res" >&6; } - eval $as_lineno_stack; ${as_lineno_stack:+:} unset as_lineno @@ -683,22 +522,21 @@ neno_stack This file contains any messages produced by compilers while running configure, to aid debugging if configure makes a mistake. @@ -5680,6 +5680,57 @@ -=20 + fi -=20 + + +ac_fn_c_check_func "$LINENO" "xdr_double" "ac_cv_func_xdr_double" -+if test "x$ac_cv_func_xdr_double" =3D xyes; then : ++if test "x$ac_cv_func_xdr_double" = xyes; then : + +else -+ { $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: checking for xdr_double in -lti= -rpc" >&5 ++ { $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: checking for xdr_double in -ltirpc" >&5 +$as_echo_n "checking for xdr_double in -ltirpc... " >&6; } +if ${ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double+:} false; then : + $as_echo_n "(cached) " >&6 +else -+ ac_check_lib_save_LIBS=3D$LIBS -+LIBS=3D"-ltirpc $LIBS" ++ ac_check_lib_save_LIBS=$LIBS ++LIBS="-ltirpc $LIBS" +cat confdefs.h - <<_ACEOF >conftest.$ac_ext +/* end confdefs.h. */ + @@ -718,19 +556,18 @@ rpc" >&5 +} +_ACEOF +if ac_fn_c_try_link "$LINENO"; then : -+ ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double=3Dyes ++ ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double=yes +else -+ ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double=3Dno ++ ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double=no +fi +rm -f core conftest.err conftest.$ac_objext \ + conftest$ac_exeext conftest.$ac_ext -+LIBS=3D$ac_check_lib_save_LIBS ++LIBS=$ac_check_lib_save_LIBS +fi -+{ $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: result: $ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_doub= -le" >&5 ++{ $as_echo "$as_me:${as_lineno-$LINENO}: result: $ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double" >&5 +$as_echo "$ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double" >&6; } -+if test "x$ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double" =3D xyes; then : -+ TLIBS=3D"$TLIBS -ltirpc" ++if test "x$ac_cv_lib_tirpc_xdr_double" = xyes; then : ++ TLIBS="$TLIBS -ltirpc" +else + as_fn_error $? "Need xdr_double" "$LINENO" 5 +fi @@ -740,65 +577,26 @@ le" >&5 + + #AC_CONFIG_SUBDIRS($MY_SUBDIRS) -=20 + # Find where Data begins. This is used by the storage allocation Take care, -L=C3=A9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit writes: +Leon Dutoit writes: -> =E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81= -=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2= -=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94= -=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81= -=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2= -=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94= -=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81= -=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2= -=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94= -=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81= -=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2= -=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94= -=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81= -=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2= -=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94= -=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81= -=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2= -=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81=E2=94=81 -> De : Camm Maguire -> =C3=80 : L=C3=A9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit -> Cc : "list" ; gcl-devel= -@gnu.org -> Envoy=C3=A9 le : Lundi 2 Janvier 2012 22h40 -> Objet : Re: axiom and glibc-2.14 > > Greetings! Can you post a failing build log please? > > Take care, > -> L=C3=A9on Dutoit Leon Dutoit writes: -> ->> Compilation of axiom fails on slackware64 (current) because in glibc-2.1= -4 support of rpc has been suppressed. +>> Compilation of axiom fails on slackware64 (current) because in glibc-2.14 support of rpc has been suppressed. >> >> The problem is with gcl-2.6.8pre4 (and maybe after). >> ->> To have rpc support the library "libtiprc" must be installed, but then a= -t the link stage "-ltirpc" should be added. +>> To have rpc support the library "libtiprc" must be installed, but then at the link stage "-ltirpc" should be added. >> This is apparently not checked in the configure script in gcl-2.6.8pre4. ->> ->> _______________________________________________ ->> Axiom-developer mailing list ->> list ->> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> -> -- -> Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -> "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + > > I get this : > @@ -838,39 +636,20 @@ om/obj/slackware/lib/libspad.a > make[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2 > make[1]: Leaving directory `/d1/axiom' > make: *** [all] Error 2 -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - ---=20 -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -From: Gabriel Dos Reis -To: open-axiom-announce@lists.sf.net Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 07:12:56 -0600 -Cc: list, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: list Subject: CICM 2012: Second call for paper - Apologies for duplicate copies. - - - CICM 2012 - Conference on Intelligent Computer Mathematics July 9-13, 2012 at Jacobs University, Bremen, Germany http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/cicm2012/ -=20=20 + Call for Papers ---------------------------------------------------------------- @@ -895,16 +674,14 @@ Mathematical Knowledge Management (MKM) Chair: Makarius Wenzel Systems and Projects Chair: Volker Sorge -=20=20 + The overall programme will be organized by the General Program Chair Johan Jeuring. Invited talks will be given by: -Yannis Haralambous, D=C3=A9partement Informatique, T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretag= -ne -Conor McBride, Department of Computer and Information Sciences, University = -of Strathclyde +Yannis Haralambous, D=C3=A9partement Informatique, T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne +Conor McBride, Department of Computer and Information Sciences, University of Strathclyde Cezar Ionescu, Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research ---------------------------------------------------------------- @@ -1068,7 +845,7 @@ management. A non-exclusive list of important topics includes: * Computer algebra systems * Collaboration tools for mathematics * Challenges and solutions for mathematical workflows -=09 + *** Systems and Projects *** The Systems and Projects track of the Conferences on Intelligent @@ -1159,8 +936,8 @@ http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html). By submitting a paper the authors agree that if it is accepted at least one of the authors will attend the conference to present it. -Electronic submission is done through easychair=20 -(http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=3Dcicm2012). +Electronic submission is done through easychair +(http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=cicm2012). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Program Committees @@ -1241,12 +1018,10 @@ Systems & Projects track Josef Urban; Radboud University Nijmegen, The Netherlands Richard Zanibbi; Rochester Institute of Technologies, USA - \start +Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:30 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:30 -0500 - q09EUV75005563 Subject: CICM 2012 - Conference on Intelligent Computer Mathematics @@ -1254,7 +1029,7 @@ Subject: CICM 2012 - Conference on Intelligent Computer July 9-13, 2012 at Jacobs University, Bremen, Germany http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/cicm2012/ - =20 + Call for Papers ---------------------------------------------------------------- @@ -1279,14 +1054,13 @@ Mathematical Knowledge Management (MKM) Chair: Makarius Wenzel Systems and Projects Chair: Volker Sorge - =20 + The overall programme will be organized by the General Program Chair Johan Jeuring. Invited talks will be given by: -Yannis Haralambous, D=C3=A9partement Informatique, T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bret= -agne +Yannis Haralambous, Departement Informatique, Tom Bretagne Conor McBride, Department of Computer and Information Sciences, University of Strathclyde Cezar Ionescu, Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research @@ -1452,7 +1226,7 @@ management. A non-exclusive list of important topics includes: * Computer algebra systems * Collaboration tools for mathematics * Challenges and solutions for mathematical workflows - =20 + *** Systems and Projects *** The Systems and Projects track of the Conferences on Intelligent @@ -1543,8 +1317,8 @@ http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html). By submitting a paper the authors agree that if it is accepted at least one of the authors will attend the conference to present it. -Electronic submission is done through easychair=20 -(http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=3Dcicm2012). +Electronic submission is done through easychair +(http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=cicm2012). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Program Committees @@ -1627,33 +1401,19 @@ Systems & Projects track Josef Urban; Radboud University Nijmegen, The Netherlands Richard Zanibbi; Rochester Institute of Technologies, USA - - \start +Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:04:32 -0500 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:04:32 -0500 - message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:30 -0500") - recognized. -Cc: list Subject: 20111101 Greetings! Is there a *very* long regression test now in richhyper1000-1098? -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start +Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:26:52 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:26:52 -0500 - q0B2Qr75003525 -Subject: Where literate programming could have a huge - impact +Subject: Where literate programming could have a huge impact Publish the code and the data as well as the results. People should be able to reproduce results without @@ -1662,15 +1422,6 @@ contacting the original authors. We really do need to raise the level of scholarship in software and software-related science. -Tim - ->From Alfredo Portes: - - - -+------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------+ - Scientists, Share Secrets or Lose Funding: Stodden and Arbesman 2012-01-10 00:00:13.0 GMT @@ -1784,36 +1535,11 @@ at Columbia University. Samuel Arbesman is a senior scholar at the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. The opinions expressed are their own.) -Read more opinion online from Bloomberg View. - -For Related News and Information: -For more Bloomberg View: VIEW -For more on science: NI SCIENCE - ---Editors: Mary Duenwald, David Henry. - -Click on =E2=80=9CSend Comment=E2=80=9D in sidebar display to send a lett= -er to -the editor. - -To contact the writers of this article: -Victoria Stodden at victoria@stodden.net -Samuel Arbesman at sarbesman@kauffman.org. - -To contact the editor responsible for this article: -Mary Duenwald at 1+212-205-0366 or mduenwald@bloomberg.net. - - - - \start Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:20:27 -0500 From: Eugene Surowitz To: list -Message-id: <4F0DC4DB.6090502@attglobal.net> -MIME-version: 1.0 -Subject: Re: Where literate programming could have a huge - impact +Subject: Re: Where literate programming could have a huge impact Suggested reading: @@ -1845,173 +1571,16 @@ On 1/10/2012 9:26 PM, daly wrote: > >> From Alfredo Portes: > -> -> > +------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------+ > > Scientists, Share Secrets or Lose Funding: Stodden and Arbesman > 2012-01-10 00:00:13.0 GMT -> -> -> (For more Bloomberg View, click on VIEW.) -> -> By Victoria Stodden and Samuel Arbesman -> Jan. 10 (Bloomberg) -- The Journal of Irreproducible -> Results, a science-humor magazine, is, sadly, no longer the only -> publication that can lay claim to its title. More and more -> published scientific studies are difficult or impossible to -> repeat. -> It=E2=80=99s not that the experiments themselves are so flawe= -d they -> can=E2=80=99t be redone to the same effect -- though this happens m= -ore -> than scientists would like. It=E2=80=99s that the data upon which t= -he -> work is based, as well as the methods employed, are too often -> not published, leaving the science hidden. -> Many people assume that scientists the world over freely -> exchange not only the results of their experiments but also the -> detailed data, statistical tools and computer instructions they -> employed to arrive at those results. This is the kind of -> information that other scientists need in order to replicate the -> studies. The truth is, open exchange of such information is not -> common, making verification of published findings all but -> impossible and creating a credibility crisis in computational -> science. -> Federal agencies that fund scientific research are in a -> position to help fix this problem. They should require that all -> scientists whose studies they finance share the files that -> generated their published findings, the raw data and the -> computer instructions that carried out their analysis. -> The ability to reproduce experiments is important not only -> for the advancement of pure science but also to address many -> science-based issues in the public sphere, from climate change -> to biotechnology. -> -> Too Little Transparency -> -> Consider, for example, a recent notorious incident in -> biomedical science. In 2006, researchers at Duke University -> seemed to have discovered relationships between lung cancer -> patients=E2=80=99 personal genetic signatures and their responsiven= -ess -> to certain drugs. The scientists published their results in -> respected journals (the New England Journal of Medicine and -> Nature Medicine), but only part of the genetic signature data -> used in the studies was publicly available, and the computer -> codes used to generate the findings were never revealed. This is -> unfortunately typical for scientific publications. -> The Duke research was considered such a breakthrough that -> other scientists quickly became interested in replicating it, -> but because so much information was unavailable, it took three -> years for them to uncover and publicize a number of very serious -> errors in the published reports. Eventually, those reports were -> retracted, and clinical trials based on the flawed results were -> canceled. -> In response to this incident, the Institute of Medicine -> convened a committee to review what data should appropriately be -> revealed from genomics research that leads to clinical trials. -> This committee is due to release its report early this year. -> Unfortunately, the research community rarely addresses the -> problem of reproducibility so directly. Inadequate sharing is -> common to all scientific domains that use computers in their -> research today (most of science), and it hampers transparency. -> By making the underlying data and computer code -> conveniently available, scientists could open a new era of -> innovation and growth. In October, the White House released a -> memorandum titled =E2=80=9CAccelerating Technology Transfer and -> Commercialization of Federal Research in Support of High-Growth -> Businesses,=E2=80=9D which outlines ways for federal funding agenci= -es to -> improve the rate of technology transfer from government-financed -> laboratories to the private business sector. -> -> Technology Transfer -> -> In this memo, President Barack Obama called on federal -> agencies to measure the rate of technology transfer. To this -> end, agencies such as the National Institutes of Health and the -> National Science Foundation should require that scientists who -> receive federal funds publish full results, including the data -> they are based on and all the computer steps taken to reach -> them. This could include providing links to Internet sites -> containing the data and codes required to replicate the -> published results. -> Exceptions could be made when necessary -- some information -> might need to be kept confidential for national-security -> reasons, for example. But standard practice for scientific -> publication should be full transparency. -> Leaving this up to the scientific community isn=E2=80=99t -> sufficient. Nor is relying on current federal rules. Grant -> guidelines from the NIH and the NSF instruct researchers to -> share with other investigators the data generated in the course -> of their work, but this isn=E2=80=99t enforced. The NIH demands tha= -t -> articles resulting from research it finances be made freely -> available within a year of publication. But even if this policy -> were extended to all government-financed studies, the data and -> computer codes needed to verify the findings would still remain -> inaccessible. -> As Jon Claerbout, a professor emeritus of geophysics at -> Stanford University, has noted, scientific publication isn=E2=80= -=99t -> scholarship itself, but only the advertising of scholarship. The -> actual work -- the steps needed to reproduce the scientific -> finding -- must be shared. -> Stricter requirements for transparency in publication would -> allow scientific findings to more quickly become fuel for -> innovation and help ensure that public policy is based on sound -> science. -> -> -> (Victoria Stodden is an assistant professor of statistics -> at Columbia University. Samuel Arbesman is a senior scholar at -> the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. The opinions expressed are -> their own.) -> -> Read more opinion online from Bloomberg View. -> -> For Related News and Information: -> For more Bloomberg View: VIEW -> For more on science: NI SCIENCE -> -> --Editors: Mary Duenwald, David Henry. -> -> Click on =E2=80=9CSend Comment=E2=80=9D in sidebar display to send = -a letter to -> the editor. -> -> To contact the writers of this article: -> Victoria Stodden at victoria@stodden.net -> Samuel Arbesman at sarbesman@kauffman.org. -> -> To contact the editor responsible for this article: -> Mary Duenwald at 1+212-205-0366 or mduenwald@bloomberg.net. -> -> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:57:32 +0000 From: Martin Baker To: list -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:57:32 +0000 - charset="iso-8859-15" - HOkCl5BJsJz+S+LS35c254ia8ni7h/RZg35dlZwGGo8FXaKJHm - BbTLJxVOQmbUtGO1U66sbmB/LLXgWOF9boF/JeEZsIFjvsrgG4 - TuVpVE29za5z73ThFtj/Q+a1CjGUCSXn6meuBKbRqhIdTapI9w - nZJZOjS/b+QtUtRGgtI19rWKLAYehr4QD4oRyh+VTJpcBGsUbN - SCc843ZaVihArbe0+3eV7DLz2/VgXcwgWmLrlT3jBgg28rZYii - RXDUTibw9HZUea30zyxbLxq9Eg2UEJFnO1lSnnchUl7/xSM9Bl - v94pZGQduUr4Y7TUHe2okUOCopHyr5N65QpTwNcg4 - recognized. Subject: literate programming in html Does the code have to be physically in the same document as the documentation @@ -2027,15 +1596,10 @@ Is there some way this could be done for code? That is get the browser to insert it into the document when its being read rather than build what looks like quite messy tangling and untangling tools? -Martin - - \start Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:59:52 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 -To: Martin Baker, axiom-dev - <201201201057.32600.Martin Baker> +To: Martin Baker Subject: Re: literate programming in html On 01/20/2012 11:57 AM, Martin Baker wrote: @@ -2062,15 +1626,10 @@ embellish your documentation with nice constructive examples (the actual code). (Traditionally, we embellish programs by documentation.) -Ralf - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:24:22 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: Martin Baker - <201201201057.32600.Martin Baker> -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:24:22 -0500 -Cc: list Subject: Re: literate programming in html On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 10:57 +0000, Martin Baker wrote: @@ -2086,9 +1645,6 @@ On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 10:57 +0000, Martin Baker wrote: > Is there some way this could be done for code? That is get the browser to > insert it into the document when its being read rather than build what looks > like quite messy tangling and untangling tools? -> -> Martin -> The example I gave was http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/litprog.html @@ -2121,27 +1677,19 @@ find that the contents of a header file is usually spread around in a literate document and re-assembled for the compiler. -Tim - - - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:26:03 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:26:03 -0500 Subject: American Math Society column Publishing Computational Mathematics http://www.ams.org/notices/201202/rtx120200320p.pdf - - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:38:44 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:38:44 -0500 Subject: Excellent literate program example There is a book called @@ -2179,27 +1727,10 @@ It is studies like this that make history in computer science, just like the studies of programmer productivity. A properly done study would be a landmark paper. -Tim - - - - - \start -From: Martin Baker -To: "axiom-dev" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:43:26 +0000 - <201201201057.32600.Martin Baker> - <4F195738.6010904@hemmecke.de> - charset="iso-8859-1" - fKM9pR4gHNo5cx7wbrvue/dwfGpMBK1hcVFpDr64vF+8AaR0kP - RfibuTiKGmBNQFPBkv+NFUTRfjNeLTjUmxaaICYjgQhkv2fwk2 - z/uCIS0F6pRwcIDlsk+qAmES9sw97zj4Gl/Nqo3IznS77UwFUv - 48QSbTtaCdZbbLg7UFfXbTb1MmWEvja5MjRJkzqOA2yz2e8K1i - 8vk8BpbCYSpwDiJ9ELAqvTqV6lWLOC2fYvCkoTAH+4njSvERak - nI5/P1QOJPcAaH4CIIFsnz3UrmXnmMldltmXBPTHfVd/8sTy6o - h2GBZwGE2A1y0rinZVWnqyt9xs58ASrNVYDzSIq1U - recognized. +From: Martin Baker +To: list Subject: Re: literate programming in html On Friday 20 Jan 2012 11:59:52 Ralf Hemmecke wrote: @@ -2231,16 +1762,10 @@ debugging tools? I think there is a lot to be said for keeping the documentation (LP and hyperdoc) on a server somwhere and only downloading code to users client. -Martin - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:59:15 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: Martin Baker - <201201201057.32600.Martin Baker> <4F195738.6010904@hemmecke.de> - <201201201543.26467.Martin Baker> -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:59:15 -0500 -Cc: list Subject: Re: literate programming in html On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 15:43 +0000, Martin Baker wrote: @@ -2316,26 +1841,10 @@ your new changes, just rinse and repeat. How hard is this? It could hardly be easier. Send the single pamphlet file to another user and they have everything. -Tim - - - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:54:25 +0000 From: Martin Baker To: list -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:54:25 +0000 - <201201201543.26467.Martin Baker> - <1327075155.25434.14585.camel@pewter> - charset="utf-8" - R13Yd9CbuXS9GdGAjROtUb22V3jhAV5Ap72BHu/f68Os4Vet8H - sbzqg4njL86PKBp+H7whlAE1BWMISvgcHTvI7Ilt9Xy0wMaYBE - omgUCqAuK7xe0XtmEFqU0et6GfeuNCMizUe3O/GEEzzlwQxF3b - RO+unIxGJQFmucJLPOloRZv0MJ2CYaN+D7ghBM/p5u95IOr+u9 - vhhTRX9EgM+SdyAYVHHZsKTnbWIvgu9kPKNbafyGpDDHTKAX0f - VU1JUTwuZAXLf+cECnXUdCptjtrlQSfmJTHGLdvmeK90pWbuUK - q4xb7qORuGy9ZqxzcspEjEGJDGA9F3N0vRTHEbL3v - recognized. Subject: Re: literate programming in html On Friday 20 Jan 2012 15:59:15 you wrote: @@ -2381,13 +1890,10 @@ We have discussed these things before and I think I'm starting to repeat myself so, as I say I think it best to agree to disagree. I will watch your experiment with interest and be ready to be proved wrong. -Martin - - \start +Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:59:31 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: literate programming in html On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 18:53 +0000, Martin Baker wrote: @@ -2503,12 +2009,9 @@ useful paradigm. Either approach is fine. Much more important is the literate programming mindset and you clearly know that already. Keep up the good work. - - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 04:57:31 -0600 +From: Tim Daly To: list Subject: Axiom January 2012 released @@ -2619,17 +2122,12 @@ src/interp src/scripts/tex/ axiom.sty fix comments - - - - \start +Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:40:05 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:40:05 -0500 Subject: Intrinsic Error Rate - I have been asked to do a video for the Clojure programming group about literate programming and this was a recent reply explaining the idea. I don't think I've mentioned this special diff --git a/book/2012-02.txt b/book/2012-02.txt index dc78b9d..b251589 100644 --- a/book/2012-02.txt +++ b/book/2012-02.txt @@ -1,9 +1,7 @@ \start -From: Gabriel Dos Reis -To: open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:38:36 -0600 -Cc: , open-axiom-announce@lists.sf.net, - list +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: list Subject: CICM 2012: Last Call for Papers @@ -11,7 +9,7 @@ Subject: CICM 2012: Last Call for Papers July 9-13, 2012 at Jacobs University, Bremen, Germany http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/cicm2012/ -=20=20 + Call for Papers ---------------------------------------------------------------- @@ -36,7 +34,7 @@ Mathematical Knowledge Management (MKM) Chair: Makarius Wenzel Systems and Projects Chair: Volker Sorge -=20=20 + The overall programme will be organized by the General Program Chair Johan Jeuring. @@ -44,7 +42,7 @@ Invited talks will be given by: Yannis Haralambous, D=C3=A9partement Informatique, T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretag= ne -Conor McBride, Department of Computer and Information Sciences,=20 +Conor McBride, Department of Computer and Information Sciences, University of Strathclyde Cezar Ionescu, Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research @@ -300,8 +298,8 @@ http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html). By submitting a paper the authors agree that if it is accepted at least one of the authors will attend the conference to present it. -Electronic submission is done through easychair=20 -(http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=3Dcicm2012). +Electronic submission is done through easychair +(http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=cicm2012). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Program Committees @@ -382,17 +380,14 @@ Systems & Projects track Josef Urban; Radboud University Nijmegen, The Netherlands Richard Zanibbi; Rochester Institute of Technologies, USA - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:31:23 -0600 +From: Tim Daly To: list Subject: running a single test case In response to an offline user query.... - - Axiom includes a test suite in src/input which is a set of pamphlet files. You can run an individual test suite. There are two lisp functions built diff --git a/book/2012-03.txt b/book/2012-03.txt index 6fc2a0c..5b7a073 100644 --- a/book/2012-03.txt +++ b/book/2012-03.txt @@ -1,10 +1,8 @@ \start -From: Tim Daly -To: Obri John Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:28:08 -0400 -Cc: list -Subject: Re: Permission Request for 'Axiom Computer - Algebra Sy...' +From: Tim Daly +To: Obri John +Subject: Re: Permission Request for 'Axiom Computer Algebra Sy...' Axiom is free and open source, licensed under the Modified BSD. This means that you are free to do anything you like @@ -36,20 +34,10 @@ On Wed, 2012-03-28 at 15:46 +0000, Obri John wrote: > > Thank you for your time and patience. > I look forward to your response next week. -> -> --- -> Best wishes, -> Obri John -> Dominican Republic -> (GMT +4) -> Translation for Education FAQ - http://goo.gl/q9Oq9 - - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:45:55 -0600 +From: Tim Daly To: list Subject: Axiom March 2012 Release diff --git a/book/2012-04.txt b/book/2012-04.txt index b69786e..df038f3 100644 --- a/book/2012-04.txt +++ b/book/2012-04.txt @@ -2,11 +2,7 @@ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:23:42 +1000 From: Alasdair McAndrew To: list - recognized. -Subject: A quick question about finite fields and - polynomials - ---e89a8fb1fbbe92761e04bde0afaa +Subject: A quick question about finite fields and polynomials Hello, @@ -39,71 +35,11 @@ that I can factorize the result. I want something like But how can I obtain the polynomial in expression (69) without typing it in; that is, from u and f directly? -Thanks, -Alasdair - --- -Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.com -Web: http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/ -Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew - ---e89a8fb1fbbe92761e04bde0afaa - -Hello,

I'm just looking at axiom again after some ye= -ars, and I've run into a little conundrum. =A0I have two objects, an el= -ement u of the finite field FF(7,4), and the defining polynomial f of that = -field. =A0Thus:
-

(6= -7) -> u
(67) ->=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3 =A0 =A0 =A02
-
=A0 =A0(67) =A05%A =A0= -+ 5%A =A0+ %A
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Type: FiniteField(7,4)
-
68) -> f
(68) ->=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 4
-
=A0 =A0(68) =A0? =A0+ = -? + 1
=A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Type: SparseUni= -variatePolynomial PrimeField 7
-

What I want to do is to coerce both objects to po= -lynomials over PF 7, so that I can factorize the result. =A0I want somethin= -g like

(69) -> factor(5*b^3+5*b^2+b+b^4+b+1::POLY PF 7)
-
(69) ->=A0
=A0 =A0(69) =A0(b = -+ 1)(b + 2)(b + 3)(b + 6)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Type: Factored Polynomial PrimeField 7
-

But how can I obtain the = -polynomial in expression (69) without typing it in; that is, from u and f d= -irectly?
-

Thanks,
Alasdair

-- -Blog: http://amca= -01.wordpress.com
Web:=A0 http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/
Faceboo= -k: = -http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew
- -
- ---e89a8fb1fbbe92761e04bde0afaa-- - - \start Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:13:37 +0200 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:11.0) Gecko/20120329 Thunderbird/11.0.1 To: list -Subject: Re: A quick question about finite fields and - polynomials +Subject: Re: A quick question about finite fields and polynomials I'm using FriCAS here, but AXIOM should most probably be the same. @@ -158,13 +94,10 @@ SparseUnivariatePolynomial(PrimeField(7)) Type: Factored(SparseUnivariatePolynomial(PrimeField(7))) - \start -To: Alasdair McAndrew (Alasdair McAndrew) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:26:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch - recognized. -Cc: list +To: Alasdair McAndrew Subject: Re: A quick question about finite fields and Alasdair McAndrew wrote: @@ -227,23 +160,12 @@ In Spad you need to use: In more complex cases you may need PolynomiaCategoryLifting. --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:51:47 +0200 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:11.0) Gecko/20120329 Thunderbird/11.0.1 -To: fricas-devel < >, - open-axiom-devel , - axiom-dev - recognized. +To: list Subject: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? -Dear all, - since about two weeks now http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/ http://axiom-portal.newsynthesis.org/ are down. The virtual machine is no longer hosted by a computer of the sage progject. @@ -254,23 +176,15 @@ Is there someone (besides Bill Page who thankfully invested quite a lot of work into thes pages) who wants to have these sites back? If yes, then please explain why. -All the best -Ralf - - \start +Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:26:17 -0400 From: Tim Daly To: Ralf Hemmecke -Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:26:17 -0400 -Cc: list -Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project - pages? +Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? If there is a site backup I can re-host the pages. There is a lot of work invested that should not be lost. -Tim - On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 15:51 +0200, Ralf Hemmecke wrote: > Dear all, > @@ -283,30 +197,13 @@ On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 15:51 +0200, Ralf Hemmecke wrote: > Is there someone (besides Bill Page who thankfully invested quite a lot > of work into thes pages) who wants to have these sites back? If yes, > then please explain why. -> -> All the best -> Ralf -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - - - \start -To: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:28:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch - recognized. -Cc: list, open-axiom-devel@lists.sourceforge.net -Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or - separate project pages? +To: list +Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? -> -> Dear all, -> > since about two weeks now http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/ > http://axiom-portal.newsynthesis.org/ are down. The virtual machine is > no longer hosted by a computer of the sage progject. @@ -332,21 +229,11 @@ Regardless of current and future preferences of authors, it would be shame to loose material accumulated in Axiom wiki, so I wish the site back. --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 15:09:25 -0400 From: Bill Page To: Tim Daly - recognized. -Cc: list -Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project - pages? - -Tim, +Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? You can download the VirtualBox virtual machine image from these URLs: @@ -382,33 +269,12 @@ On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Tim Daly wrote: >> Is there someone (besides Bill Page who thankfully invested quite a lot >> of work into thes pages) who wants to have these sites back? If yes, >> then please explain why. ->> ->> All the best ->> Ralf ->> ->> _______________________________________________ ->> Axiom-developer mailing list ->> list ->> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> -> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - \start +Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:04:07 -0400 From: Tim Daly To: Bill Page - -Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:04:07 -0400 -Cc: list -Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project - pages? - -Bill, +Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? I have the files, thank you. I will see what it takes to set up the vbox. @@ -452,35 +318,12 @@ On Thu, 2012-04-26 at 15:09 -0400, Bill Page wrote: > >> Is there someone (besides Bill Page who thankfully invested quite a lot > >> of work into thes pages) who wants to have these sites back? If yes, > >> then please explain why. -> >> -> >> All the best -> >> Ralf -> >> -> >> _______________________________________________ -> >> Axiom-developer mailing list -> >> list -> >> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> > -> > -> > -> > _______________________________________________ -> > Axiom-developer mailing list -> > list -> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - - - \start Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 10:05:05 -0400 From: Bill Page To: Tim Daly - recognized. -Cc: list -Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project - pages? - -Tim, +Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? You should have the 4 files together in a directory somewhere. After setting up VirtualBox use the VirtualBox File/Import Applicance wizard diff --git a/book/2012-06.txt b/book/2012-06.txt index dd112b3..c8e8791 100644 --- a/book/2012-06.txt +++ b/book/2012-06.txt @@ -1,20 +1,15 @@ \start -From: Grigory Sarnitskiy -To: "list" - - <1335513847.2382.27.camel@pewter> Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:48:16 +0400 - recognized. -Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project - pages? +From: Grigory Sarnitskiy +To: list +Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? Any progress? The wiki is still shown in google search results, but unfortunately its pages are not cashed. I just wanted to know if there is really no parametric polymorphism in Spad. - \start +Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 00:58:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 00:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Axiom May 2012 release May 2012 release notes @@ -110,15 +105,11 @@ zips/ gcl-2.6.8pre7.unixport.init_gcl.lsp.in.patch port to pre7 gcl-2.6.8pre7.unixport.makefile.patch port patch to pre7 - \start Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:03:20 -0400 From: Alfredo Portes To: Grigory Sarnitskiy - recognized. -Cc: "list" -Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project - pages? +Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project pages? Hi Grigory, @@ -131,29 +122,13 @@ http://www.euclideanspace.com/maths/standards/program/spad/index.htm On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Grigory Sarnitskiy wrote: > Any progress? The wiki is still shown in google search results, but unfortunately its pages are not cashed. I just wanted to know if there is really no parametric polymorphism in Spad. -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - \start Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:24:05 +0200 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 Thunderbird/12.0.1 To: Alfredo Portes - - <1335513847.2382.27.camel@pewter> - <1080031339138096@web25d.yandex.ru> - - recognized. -Cc: axiom-dev , - fricas-devel < > Subject: PanAxiom or separate project pages? -Hi Alfredo, - > I am also looking forward to these pages being up again, or just have > the text content somewhere. @@ -191,19 +166,10 @@ Martin Rubey did with efricas inside the IPython notebook. Would you be able to help with (2)? -Anybody else any ideas? - -Ralf - - - \start +Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:09:01 -0400 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:09:01 -0400 - Jun 2012 00:58:44 -0400 (EDT)") - recognized. -Cc: list Subject: Re: Axiom May 2012 release Greetings, and thanks for your work here as always! @@ -309,28 +275,11 @@ Tim Daly writes: > gcl-2.6.8pre7.tgz lisp fixes from Camm Maquire > gcl-2.6.8pre7.unixport.init_gcl.lsp.in.patch port to pre7 > gcl-2.6.8pre7.unixport.makefile.patch port patch to pre7 -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -To: Grigory Sarnitskiy (Grigory Sarnitskiy) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:44:29 +0200 (CEST) +To: Grigory Sarnitskiy From: Waldek Hebisch - recognized. -Cc: "list" Subject: Re: axiom-wiki: PanAxiom or separate project > I just wanted to know if there is really no parametric polymorphism in Spad. @@ -343,19 +292,11 @@ almost mechanically translate such code to Spad. What Spad lacks is type reconstruction and general recursive types (single recursion is doable by using %). --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:09:06 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: - recognized. -Cc: axiom-dev -Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] PanAxiom or separate project - pages? +To: list +Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] PanAxiom or separate project pages? Ralf, @@ -440,17 +381,11 @@ On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Ralf Hemmecke wrote: > Would you be able to help with (2)? > > Anybody else any ideas? -> -> Ralf -> - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Camm Maguire - Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:09:01 -0400) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:08:23 -0400 -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: Re: Axiom May 2012 release Yes, the src tar is at: @@ -459,33 +394,21 @@ http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/downloads/axiom-may2012-src.tgz I'd like to know the details for the blas/lapack/atlas FFI and also the details of FFI. -Tim - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:19:51 -0500 -To: "Camm Maguire" Camm Maguire -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: BLAS1 -Camm, - The actual implementation details, the fortran code, the lisp code, and the spad code are all contained in book volume 10.5 (numerics). You can find the PDF on the documentation section of the website or on the Wikipedia Axiom page. -Tim - - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: u1204 Tim Daly Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:03:25 -0400 - message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:08:23 -0400") - recognized. -Cc: list, gcl-devel@gnu.org +From: Camm Maguire +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: Axiom May 2012 release Greetings, and thanks! @@ -502,7 +425,7 @@ is not searchable. So if you remember to update the former when making a release, I'll be sure to see it and package updates can proceed more smoothly. -u1204 Tim Daly writes: +Tim Daly writes: > Yes, the src tar is at: > http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/downloads/axiom-may2012-src.tgz @@ -758,38 +681,16 @@ arrays should be allocated in contiguous block memory to be safe, i.e. using the :static t keywords in make-array. It is somewhat of a pity, as such memory is slower to GC. - -If you have any questions, please feel free. - - -Take care, - -> Tim -> -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:56:20 -0500 -To: "Camm Maguire" Camm Maguire -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: monitoring download.html -Camm, - I just updated the download.html file. I was waiting until I had compiled the binaries for the different distros. I did not realize you were monitoring that file. I'll update it immediately next release. -Tim diff --git a/book/2012-07.txt b/book/2012-07.txt index 2d57d01..7837a31 100644 --- a/book/2012-07.txt +++ b/book/2012-07.txt @@ -1,23 +1,15 @@ \start -From: Rigoberto Gomez Cruz -To: "list" -Thread-Topic: Make fails -Thread-Index: Ac1bjP5cQESxNPaySQeefXt/pzLwWQ== Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 15:38:41 +0000 -Accept-Language: es-CO, en-US -x-originating-ip: [157.253.72.40] - boundary="_000_7EFFB355877B144EAE616F5B6CDDB56419D7ACBY2PRD0810MB391na_" - tstamp-) +From: Rigoberto Gomez Cruz +To: list Subject: Make fails ---_000_7EFFB355877B144EAE616F5B6CDDB56419D7ACBY2PRD0810MB391na_ - Sirs, Im trying to install May2012 buit in my debian system. I had installed a pr= evious built and it worked fine. I have gNewSense 2.3 Debian distro and the make ends with following lines: -gcc -c -Wall -DVOL=3Dvolatile -fsigned-char -Wno-unused-but-set-variable -p= +gcc -c -Wall -DVOL=volatile -fsigned-char -Wno-unused-but-set-variable -p= ipe -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer -I/home/rgomez/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7/o -I..= /h -I../gcl-tk sfasl.c In file included from sfasl.c:66: @@ -38,62 +30,10 @@ make[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2 make[1]: se sale del directorio `/home/rgomez/axiom' make: *** [all] Error 2 -Can you give any hint. -Rigoberto G=F3mez Cruz - ---_000_7EFFB355877B144EAE616F5B6CDDB56419D7ACBY2PRD0810MB391na_ - - - - - - - -
Sirs,
-Im trying to install May2012 buit in my debian system. I had installed a pr= -evious built and it worked fine.
-I have gNewSense 2.3 Debian distro and the make ends with following lines:<= -br> -
-gcc -c -Wall -DVOL=3Dvolatile -fsigned-char -Wno-unused-but-set-variable -p= -ipe -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer  -I/home/rgomez/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7/o= - -I../h -I../gcl-tk sfasl.c
-In file included from sfasl.c:66:
-sfaslelf.c: En la funci=F3n =91clear_protect_memory=92:
-sfaslelf.c:529: aviso: declaraci=F3n impl=EDcita de la funci=F3n =91__built= -in___clear_cache=92
-En el nivel principal:
-cc1: error: no se reconoce la opci=F3n de l=EDnea de comando "-Wno-unu= -sed-but-set-variable"
-make[4]: *** [sfasl.o] Error 1
-make[4]: se sale del directorio `/home/rgomez/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7/o' -make[3]: *** [unixport/saved_pre_gcl] Error 2
-make[3]: se sale del directorio `/home/rgomez/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7'
-/bin/sh: unixport/saved_gcl: not found
-make[2]: *** [gcldir] Error 127
-make[2]: se sale del directorio `/home/rgomez/axiom/lsp'
-make[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2
-make[1]: se sale del directorio `/home/rgomez/axiom'
-make: *** [all] Error 2
-
-Can you give any hint.
-Rigoberto G=F3mez Cruz
-
- - - ---_000_7EFFB355877B144EAE616F5B6CDDB56419D7ACBY2PRD0810MB391na_-- - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 18:11:24 -0500 -To: Rigoberto Gomez Cruz -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Rigoberto Gomez Cruz Subject: Make fails I suspect you are having a problem with SELinux. @@ -110,13 +50,9 @@ See faq item 36 and 37: echo 0 >/proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield -Tim Daly - - \start Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:48:10 +0200 -From: kp - rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 +From: Kurt Pagani To: list Subject: TeX output of a**bc @@ -144,17 +80,10 @@ I'm using Axiom mostly via Python (TeXmacs, IPython) so that re.sub(r"\\sp ([^ \t\r\n\f\v\\]*)", r"^{\1}", tex) is a workaround for the moment. -Cheers -Kurt - - - \start Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:28 +0200 -From: kp - rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 +From: Kurt Pagani To: William Sit -Cc: list Subject: Re: TeX output of a**bc Yes, indeed. I didn't even think of the interpretation as a^{b c} @@ -163,8 +92,6 @@ much attention when rendered, but it's definitively not to distinguish when c is literal. I have to review my workaround. Thank you for pointing this out. -Kurt - Am 11.07.2012 19:48, schrieb William Sit: > In TeX, a^bc would be interpreted mathematically as (a^b)c, whereas @@ -175,12 +102,9 @@ Am 11.07.2012 19:48, schrieb William Sit: > One would need something like a^{\rm bc}, but even that is possibly > ambiguous; but some change in font is needed. > -> William -> -> -> + > On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:48:10 +0200 -> kp wrote: +> kp Kurt Pagani wrote: >> Hello, >> >> by accident I noticed the following irregularity in the TeX output @@ -204,30 +128,11 @@ Am 11.07.2012 19:48, schrieb William Sit: >> I'm using Axiom mostly via Python (TeXmacs, IPython) so that >> re.sub(r"\\sp ([^ \t\r\n\f\v\\]*)", r"^{\1}", tex) >> is a workaround for the moment. ->> ->> Cheers ->> Kurt ->> ->> ->> _______________________________________________ ->> Axiom-developer mailing list ->> list ->> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> -> William Sit, Professor Emeritus -> Mathematics, City College of New York -> Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 -> Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ - - - \start -From: William Sit -To: kp Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:39:56 -0400 - <4FFDCFA4.4090606@scios.ch> -Cc: list +From: William Sit +To: Kurt Pagani Subject: Re: TeX output of a**bc In the case c is literally an integer, and b is a symbol, @@ -244,18 +149,12 @@ can use \verbatim to capture Axiom input and output lines. William On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:28 +0200 - kp wrote: -> Yes, indeed. I didn't even think of the interpretation ->as a^{b c} -> because in fact c were integers in my examples, so it ->didn't attract -> much attention when rendered, but it's definitively not ->to distinguish -> when c is literal. I have to review my workaround. -> -> Thank you for pointing this out. -> Kurt -> + +> Yes, indeed. I didn't even think of the interpretation as a^{b c} +>because in fact c were integers in my examples, so it didn't attract +>much attention when rendered, but it's definitively not to +>distinguish when c is literal. I have to review my workaround. + > > Am 11.07.2012 19:48, schrieb William Sit: >> In TeX, a^bc would be interpreted mathematically as @@ -272,10 +171,8 @@ On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:28 +0200 >> >> William >> ->> ->> >> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:48:10 +0200 ->> kp wrote: +>> kp Kurt Pagani wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> by accident I noticed the following irregularity in the @@ -301,36 +198,11 @@ On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:28 +0200 >>>that >>> re.sub(r"\\sp ([^ \t\r\n\f\v\\]*)", r"^{\1}", tex) >>> is a workaround for the moment. ->>> ->>> Cheers ->>> Kurt ->>> ->>> ->>> _______________________________________________ ->>> Axiom-developer mailing list ->>> list ->>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer ->> ->> William Sit, Professor Emeritus ->> Mathematics, City College of New York ->> Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 ->> Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ -> -> - -William Sit, Professor Emeritus -Mathematics, City College of New York -Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 -Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ - \start Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 01:21:24 +0200 -From: kp - rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 +From: Kurt Pagani To: William Sit - <4FFDCFA4.4090606@scios.ch> -Cc: list Subject: Re: TeX output of a**bc To tell the whole story, I've written a new TeXmacs plugin for Axiom (in @@ -408,7 +280,7 @@ Am 11.07.2012 22:39, schrieb William Sit: > William > > On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:28 +0200 -> kp wrote: +> kp Kurt Pagani wrote: >> Yes, indeed. I didn't even think of the interpretation as a^{b c} >> because in fact c were integers in my examples, so it didn't attract >> much attention when rendered, but it's definitively not to distinguish @@ -432,7 +304,7 @@ Am 11.07.2012 22:39, schrieb William Sit: >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:48:10 +0200 ->>> kp wrote: +>>> kp Kurt Pagani wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> by accident I noticed the following irregularity in the TeX output @@ -456,38 +328,11 @@ Am 11.07.2012 22:39, schrieb William Sit: >>>> I'm using Axiom mostly via Python (TeXmacs, IPython) so that >>>> re.sub(r"\\sp ([^ \t\r\n\f\v\\]*)", r"^{\1}", tex) >>>> is a workaround for the moment. ->>>> ->>>> Cheers ->>>> Kurt ->>>> ->>>> ->>>> _______________________________________________ ->>>> Axiom-developer mailing list ->>>> list ->>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer ->>> ->>> William Sit, Professor Emeritus ->>> Mathematics, City College of New York ->>> Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 ->>> Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ ->> ->> -> -> William Sit, Professor Emeritus -> Mathematics, City College of New York -> Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 -> Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ - - - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: Rigoberto Gomez Cruz Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:33:45 -0400 - (Rigoberto Gomez Cruz's message of "Fri, 6 Jul 2012 15:38:41 +0000") - recognized. -Cc: "list" +From: Camm Maguire +To: Rigoberto Gomez Cruz Subject: Re: Make fails Greetings! Yes, you are using an older gcc version. @@ -499,14 +344,14 @@ this. Take care, -Rigoberto Gomez Cruz writes: +Rigoberto Gomez Cruz writes: > Sirs, > Im trying to install May2012 buit in my debian system. I had installed a = previous built and it worked fine. > I have gNewSense 2.3 Debian distro and the make ends with following lines: > -> gcc -c -Wall -DVOL=3Dvolatile -fsigned-char -Wno-unused-but-set-variable = +> gcc -c -Wall -DVOL=volatile -fsigned-char -Wno-unused-but-set-variable = -pipe -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer -I/home/rgomez/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7/o > -I../h -I../gcl-tk sfasl.c > In file included from sfasl.c:66: @@ -526,25 +371,9 @@ unused-but-set-variable" > make[1]: *** [lspdir] Error 2 > make[1]: se sale del directorio `/home/rgomez/axiom' > make: *** [all] Error 2 -> -> Can you give any hint. -> Rigoberto G=C3=B3mez Cruz -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - ---=20 -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -From: Renaud.Rioboo@ensiie.fr +From: Renaud Rioboo To: list Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:41:48 +0200 Subject: installing Axiom on Fedora 16 @@ -588,19 +417,10 @@ bin rr@roamrr->echo $AXIOM /usr/local/Install/axiom/mnt/fedora/ - - - --- -Renaud Rioboo - - \start Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:26:22 +0200 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:13.0) Gecko/20120615 Thunderbird/13.0.1 To: list - recognized. Subject: Re: installing Axiom on Fedora 16 Hi Renaud, @@ -617,20 +437,10 @@ library base. Of course, your license would have to be compatible with the modified BSD license under which the 3 systems are currently distributed. -Are you interested? - -Ralf - - - - - \start Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:14:57 -0500 From: Gabriel Dos Reis To: Ralf Hemmecke - recognized. -Cc: list, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net Subject: Re: installing Axiom on Fedora 16 On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Ralf Hemmecke wrote: @@ -660,22 +470,15 @@ widely as possible. I just woke up after an unusually long night, so I have not been able to answer all of his questions yet. I need some coffee and I will get back to him :-) --- Gaby - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Renaud.Rioboo@ensiie.fr Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 20:33:52 -0400 -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Renaud Rioboo Subject: Re: installing Axiom on Fedora 16 -Renaud, - I will try to install your package. Sorry I did not reply immediately. I've been pretty busy recently. -Tim Daly diff --git a/book/2012-09.txt b/book/2012-09.txt index c63e427..d09b11d 100644 --- a/book/2012-09.txt +++ b/book/2012-09.txt @@ -1,10 +1,7 @@ \start Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:48:05 +0200 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 -To: fricas-devel < >, - axiom-dev - recognized. +To: list Subject: spadhelp Hello Waldek, hello Tim, @@ -55,15 +52,10 @@ HyperTex. Has there ever been any attempt to define the HyperTex-commands in a .sty file and then process the .ht files via LaTeX? -Ralf - - \start -To: Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:55:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch - recognized. -Cc: axiom-dev +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] spadhelp > diff --git a/book/2013-01.txt b/book/2013-01.txt index 2be1dbe..6f39b63 100644 --- a/book/2013-01.txt +++ b/book/2013-01.txt @@ -1,28 +1,16 @@ \start +Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 14:40:05 -0500 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 14:40:05 -0500 - Jun 2012 00:58:44 -0400 (EDT)") -Cc: list Subject: Re: Axiom May 2012 release Greetings! Just checking in -- how are you? Is axiom taking a rest these days? -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Camm Maguire - Tue, 08 Jan 2013 14:40:05 -0500) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:12:26 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: Re: Axiom May 2012 release I'm still here. I have taken a bit of a vacation from updates after so @@ -32,16 +20,10 @@ Now that I'm unemployed I expect to get back to regular changes. How's life there? -Tim - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Johann Dirry - (message from Johann Dirry on Thu, 17 Jan 2013 17:59:55 +0100) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:05:11 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Johann Dirry Subject: Re: Windows Support is broken Axiom doesn't run on any version of Windows. It probably never will @@ -54,36 +36,21 @@ at the command prompt. All literate files in Axiom are, or soon will be, pure latex. The noweb implementation is being phased out. -Tim Daly -Tim Daly - - \start -From: Johann Dirry Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:19:50 +0100 -To: Tim Daly, list +From: Johann Dirry +To: list Subject: Documentation Document broken -Hi, - It looks like the document "axiom-endpaper.pdf" is broken. * The lists of packages on page 6 and page 9 are cut of. * Pages 2, 3, 5, 8, and 10 are empty. -Please fix. - - -ys, John - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Johann Dirry - (message from Johann Dirry on Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:19:50 +0100) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:44:09 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Johann Dirry Subject: Re: Documentation Document broken The file endpaper.pdf on the axiom-developer.org website has been fixed. @@ -93,15 +60,10 @@ I run a system build and test cycle, probably by later today. Thanks for the update. -Tim Daly - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:47:20 -0600 -To: Johann Dirry - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Johann Dirry Subject: Documentation Document fix The file endpaper.pdf on the axiom-developer.org website has been fixed. @@ -109,18 +71,10 @@ The file endpaper.pdf on the axiom-developer.org website has been fixed. The endpaper.pamphlet file containing the source will be pushed after I run a system build and test cycle, probably by later today. -Thanks for the bug report. - -Tim Daly - - \start Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:21:09 -0500 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.2 -MIME-version: 1.0 To: list - recognized. Subject: Re: Windows Support is broken Actually, the very old version from the website diff --git a/book/2013-03.txt b/book/2013-03.txt index 5400160..c04b7fd 100644 --- a/book/2013-03.txt +++ b/book/2013-03.txt @@ -1,11 +1,8 @@ \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: list - 05 Mar 2013 20:21:04 -0800) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:18:30 -0500 - [generic] -Subject: Re: [axiom] a typesetting error in bookvol4, - page 18 (#1) +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: Re: [axiom] a typesetting error in bookvol4, page 18 (#1) > There is one line missing: > @@ -26,16 +23,10 @@ Subject: Re: [axiom] a typesetting error in bookvol4, Thanks for the patch. I applied it. Who are you so I can give you credit? -Tim Daly - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:08:28 +0800) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:00:16 -0400 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Re: sorry for bothering and a small patch > First, there is a misspelling in my email address. Second, there @@ -47,15 +38,11 @@ Also I was unclear about your name format. I believe that the family name comes first in Asian names (so I would be Daly Tim) but I took a guess based on your email address. Did I get it the way you prefer? - - > I noticed that you have changed the buglist, is there something I > can do? The work you are doing to read and fix the books is valuable. - - I reviewed the console output, collected all of the compiler complaints, and added them to the buglist. There are duplicate entries because I have done this before. This time I tried to @@ -265,24 +252,12 @@ but you can use any name you like) cat 20130314.01.jzc.patch | mail -s "20130314.01.jzc.patch" -c list Tim Daly -Tim - - - - - - - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:11:07 +0800) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 06:04:48 -0400 -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Re: how to send a patch - >I found a lot typos and a few logical errors in bookvol0, >I think it's better to use a git branch instead of a big patch, >do you agree? @@ -325,15 +300,10 @@ punctuation inside the double-quote is correct. Real english language editors "fix" this all the time by moving the punctuation inside. So, no, don't "fix" these. -Tim Daly - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Tue, 26 Mar 2013 15:59:12 +0800) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 03:23:25 -0400 -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Your Jenks book patch set Jia, @@ -351,7 +321,4 @@ I added latex comments of the form: so it is possible to find where the electronics text aligns with the pages in the hard copy of the book. -Tim Daly - - diff --git a/book/2013-04.txt b/book/2013-04.txt index ae7d7d3..8c755e0 100644 --- a/book/2013-04.txt +++ b/book/2013-04.txt @@ -1,7 +1,6 @@ \start Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:15:22 +0400 -From: "A.B." - rv:17.0) Gecko/20130311 Thunderbird/17.0.4 +From: Andrey Bulychev To: list Subject: Higher order derivatives. @@ -123,18 +122,12 @@ d0AgRules(d0BRules(d0DRules(d1AgRules(d1BRules(d1DRules(dLidMuGeneral)))))) -- and similar definitions for dBdMu, dAgdMu, LiB, LiA. -- Then somehow export them. - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: =?utf-8?B?0JrRg9GA0L7Rh9C60LjQvSDQk9C10L3QvdCw0LTQuNC5?= Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:41:39 -0400 -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Subject: Speed of compilation -=D0=9A=D1=83=D1=80=D0=BE=D1=87=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BD =D0=93=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD= -=D0=B0=D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=B9, - Axiom does take a while to build. Let me explain why. In general, Axiom is concentrating on Literate Programming. The goal is @@ -200,15 +193,10 @@ that is well documented (including some theory), easy to modify and maintain, with a comprehensive test suite. Human-to-Human communication is more important than Human-to-Machine (code). -Tim Daly - - - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: list Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:24:03 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: list Subject: Sourceforge Axiom update Sourceforge has changed the Axiom project to conform to their new @@ -227,38 +215,21 @@ cloning the code is now done with: git clone git://git.code.sf.net/p/axiom/code axiom -Tim Daly - - \start Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 13:59:31 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: u1204 Tim Daly, - list - recognized. -Subject: /src/interp contains identical files 'libdb.text' - and 'temp.text' +To: Tim Daly +Subject: /src/interp contains identical files 'libdb.text' and 'temp.text' The directory /src/interp contains two files, 'libdb.text' and 'temp.text' that diff says are identical. Is there an 'rm' missing somewhere? -Cheers, Gene - - - - \start Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:21:12 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: , list - - recognized. +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Personally, I would very much prefer a single wiki. @@ -272,21 +243,23 @@ Gene On 4/21/2013 11:00 PM, Bill Page wrote: > Tim, -> -> I have no comment concerning your trademark claims but it was certainly not my -> intention to cause any confusion. I have updated the web page to which you referred -> to indicate that it uses FriCAS. -> -> The axiom-wiki web site is currently hosted by the FriCAS project and Waldek has -> commented in an email to the FriCAS list that he does not intend that the web site be -> exclusive to FriCAS but he does not have the resources to support more than the -> FriCAS part of the the site. Since this is a wiki the contents of the site is under -> the control of the wiki user community. If there is continued disagreement about the -> appearance and contents of the site regarding the use of the work "axiom", then the -> likely result is that the original Axiom project will no longer be represented there -> at all. But before anyone takes such steps I think it would be better to discuss it a -> little further. -> + +> I have no comment concerning your trademark claims but it was +> certainly not my intention to cause any confusion. I have updated +> the web page to which you referred to indicate that it uses FriCAS. + +> The axiom-wiki web site is currently hosted by the FriCAS project +> and Waldek has commented in an email to the FriCAS list that he does +> not intend that the web site be exclusive to FriCAS but he does not +> have the resources to support more than the FriCAS part of the the +> site. Since this is a wiki the contents of the site is under the +> control of the wiki user community. If there is continued +> disagreement about the appearance and contents of the site regarding +> the use of the work "axiom", then the likely result is that the +> original Axiom project will no longer be represented there at +> all. But before anyone takes such steps I think it would be better +> to discuss it a little further. + > Regards, > Bill Page. > @@ -346,31 +319,11 @@ On 4/21/2013 11:00 PM, Bill Page wrote: > > Please either change the page to use Axiom facilities or > change the page to use the name FriCAS. -> -> Please. -> -> Tim Daly -> -> -> -- -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - -> computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to -> fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. -> To post to this group, send email to . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel?hl=en. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -> -> - - \start Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:53:45 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: fricas-devel < > - (bad octet value). -Cc: list +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks The frontpage of the website @@ -506,44 +459,13 @@ On 22 April 2013 09:21, Eugene Surowitz wrote: >> >> Please. >> ->> Tim Daly ->> ->> ->> -- ->> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ->> "FriCAS - ->> computer algebra system" group. ->> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an ->> email to ->> fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. ->> To post to this group, send email to . ->> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel?hl=en. ->> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ->> ->> -> -> -- -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups -> "FriCAS - computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an -> email to fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. -> To post to this group, send email to . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel?hl=en. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -> -> - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Eugene Surowitz - Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:21:12 -0400) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:57:08 -0400 -Cc: , list +From: Tim Daly +To: Eugene Surowitz Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks -Eugene, - The issue has nothing to do with the wiki. I don't care if the wiki uses Axiom. Axiom is open source software and can be used by anyone. @@ -578,19 +500,10 @@ Tim Daly (p.s. I cannot post to the fricas-devel mailing list so you might want to mirror this to your fricas-devel reply) - - - - - \start Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:43:46 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: u1204 Tim Daly - recognized. -Cc: , list +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Already understood and I had already mirrored my comments @@ -640,20 +553,11 @@ On 4/22/2013 11:57 AM, u1204 wrote: > > (p.s. I cannot post to the fricas-devel mailing list so you might want > to mirror this to your fricas-devel reply) -> -> -> -> -> - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Eugene Surowitz - Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:43:46 -0400) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:42:04 -0400 -Cc: , list +From: Tim Daly +To: Eugene Surowitz Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks > Already understood and I had already mirrored my comments @@ -680,18 +584,13 @@ So why create a page with FriCAS and label each line Axiom? I don't understand why this is a continuing problem. -Tim Daly - - \start Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:52:35 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: u1204 Tim Daly -Cc: fricas-devel < >, - list +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks -On 22 April 2013 13:42, u1204 Tim Daly wrote: +On 22 April 2013 13:42, Tim Daly wrote: >> Already understood and I had already mirrored my comments >> to the FriCAS-devel list; just forgot to include OpenAxiom. >> @@ -716,21 +615,11 @@ On 22 April 2013 13:42, u1204 Tim Daly wrote: > > I don't understand why this is a continuing problem. > -> Tim Daly -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - \start Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:08:33 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: u1204 Tim Daly - (bad octet value). -Cc: fricas-devel < >, - list +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks I am sorry, but changing variable names inside source code because of @@ -741,13 +630,10 @@ all to the original Axiom project when they still share between 75% to 90% of the same code, the user languages are nearly (but not exactly) identical and for the most part they produce the same results. - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Bill Page - (message from Bill Page on Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:08:33 -0400) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:42:31 -0400 -Cc: , list +From: Tim Daly +To: Bill Page Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks >I am sorry, but changing variable names inside source code because of @@ -786,18 +672,10 @@ Code you wrote on that page won't run in Axiom. It is "wrong and confusing" to use the name Axiom when it is not Axiom. Please stop. -Tim - - \start Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:58:13 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: u1204 Tim Daly, - list, - fricas-devel < > - recognized. +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks I have known about 'sed' for a long time; @@ -830,18 +708,11 @@ On 4/22/2013 1:42 PM, u1204 wrote: > So why create a page with FriCAS and label each line Axiom? > > I don't understand why this is a continuing problem. -> -> Tim Daly -> -> - - \start -To: Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:00:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch -Cc: list +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Eugene Surowitz wrote: @@ -867,16 +738,10 @@ history so I will still call NAG product Axiom and not FriCAS. As long as Aldor is in use 'axiomxl' and similar names in the Aldor interface will stay. --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start -To: Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:07:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch -Cc: list +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Eugene Surowitz wrote: @@ -892,17 +757,10 @@ I am not sure how the two sentences above fit together. Do you mean that there should be a single wiki for all forks and no attempt to distinguish them? --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:17:16 +0200 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 -To: , axiom-dev - (bad octet value). +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks I think Tim would already be happy, if we modify the @@ -934,18 +792,10 @@ Personally, I don't care much about non-FriCAS, i.e. not supporting Axiom and OpenAxiom on the AxiomWiki anymore would be OK for me, but then I'd prefer to rename it to FriCASWiki and change the URL accordingly. -Ralf - - \start Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:55:52 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: , - list, - Gabriel Dos Reis - recognized. +To: Gabriel Dos Reis Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks One Wiki with a clear indication which variant @@ -967,18 +817,13 @@ On 4/23/2013 12:07 PM, Waldek Hebisch wrote: > I am not sure how the two sentences above fit together. Do > you mean that there should be a single wiki for all forks > and no attempt to distinguish them? -> - - \start -To: Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:01:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch -Cc: axiom-dev +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks -> > I think Tim would already be happy, if we modify the > >
axiom
@@ -998,16 +843,10 @@ able to put correct label (depending on which flavor is run). The change takes effect only one somebody trigger page refresh (in particular when page is modified). --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start -To: Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:22:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Waldek Hebisch -Cc: list +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Bill Page wrote: @@ -1051,16 +890,10 @@ Also, I think it would be reasonable to change name to FriCAS Wiki and change logo (currently all pages show Axiom logo). --- - Waldek Hebisch -Waldek Hebisch - - \start Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:37:16 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: fricas-devel < > -Cc: list +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks On 23 April 2013 15:22, Waldek Hebisch wrote: @@ -1128,36 +961,26 @@ Separate page. Yes, pick a nice new logo. -Regards, -Bill Page. - - \start -From: Gabriel Gino Vincent Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:42:59 -0300 +From: Gabriel Gino Vincent To: list Subject: Axiom For Mac Hello, -In Axiom's website there's a tutorial on how to install Axiom on a Mac. = -I've tried a lot, but still can't. I tried to download it from Github = -and follow the suggested steps, but I'm never able to go beyond the make = -command. I have Xcode properly installed. -Isn't there a compatible version of Axiom for Mac? If not, could I have = -some instructions on how to compile it so it can run on a Mac? - -Regards - -Gabriel Vincent= +In Axiom's website there's a tutorial on how to install Axiom on a +Mac. I've tried a lot, but still can't. I tried to download it from +Github and follow the suggested steps, but I'm never able to go beyond +the make command. I have Xcode properly installed. +Isn't there a compatible version of Axiom for Mac? If not, could I +have some instructions on how to compile it so it can run on a Mac? \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Ralf Hemmecke - Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:17:16 +0200) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:14:29 -0400 -Cc: , list +From: Tim Daly +To: Ralf Hemmecke Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Ralf, @@ -1200,16 +1023,10 @@ documentation though. It can be hard to guess what the slattern() function does if you're not a domain expert. Why bother keeping the pamphlet file format if there are no words? -Tim - - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Waldek Hebisch - Hebisch on Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:01:18 +0200 (CEST)) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:15:51 -0400 -Cc: , list +From: Tim Daly +To: Waldek Hebisch Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks >> I think Tim would already be happy, if we modify the @@ -1233,15 +1050,10 @@ Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Thank you. -Tim - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Waldek Hebisch - Hebisch on Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:22:40 +0200 (CEST)) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:21:48 -0400 -Cc: , list +From: Tim Daly +To: Waldek Hebisch Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Feel free to delete the CAISS thank-you information. @@ -1253,16 +1065,10 @@ that any use of "Axiom" actually refers to the Axiom project. I see you've already taken steps to make it clear what system is used. Thank you for that. -Tim - - \start -From: Gabriel Dos Reis -To: - "Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:43:46 -0400") - <517568C2.6070108@attglobal.net> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:08:00 -0500 -Cc: list +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Eugene Surowitz writes: @@ -1278,15 +1084,10 @@ Eugene Surowitz writes: I think OpenAxiom changed AXIOM to OpenAxiom. Or course, it makes no sense to ask people not to use axiom as variable names. --- Gaby - - \start -From: Gabriel Dos Reis -To: - message of "Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:22:40 +0200 (CEST)") Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:25:06 -0500 -Cc: list +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: trademarks Waldek Hebisch writes: @@ -1300,20 +1101,10 @@ Waldek Hebisch writes: this goes back to a question I asked some time ago. Glad to see it has found a more definitive answer. --- Gaby - - \start Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:07:53 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: , - Gabriel Dos Reis , - list - <5179315A.1040805@hemmecke.org> - - recognized. +To: Gabriel Dos Reis Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: icons I like the idea of icons/logos acknowledging the common history; @@ -1361,45 +1152,13 @@ On 4/25/2013 10:16 AM, Bill Page wrote: > > Well, it's not terribly urgent, let's think about it for some more time. > -> Ralf -> -> -> -> -- -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS -> - computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email -> to fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com -> . -> To post to this group, send email to -> . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel?hl=en. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -> -> -> -> -- -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - -> computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to -> fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. -> To post to this group, send email to . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel?hl=en. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -> -> - - \start Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:45:37 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: fricas-devel < > -Cc: list, - Gabriel Dos Reis +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: icons - ---bcaec51b157b3b20f504db358030 +Cc: Gabriel Dos Reis I think Gene has a good point also indirectly observed by Gaby: Most of the proposals so far may not represent the actual intention of the web site - @@ -1435,62 +1194,11 @@ On 25 April 2013 16:07, Eugene Surowitz wrote: > > Just ideas; Cheers , Gene > -> - ---bcaec51b157b3b20f504db358030 - -
I think Gene has a good po= -int also indirectly observed by Gaby: Most of the proposals so far may not = -represent the actual intention of the web site - even if FriCAS is the proj= -ect which is hosting the site.
-
In the past when trying to refer to an= -y of the original Axiom project, FriCAS or OpenAxiom in a neutral way we h= -ave sometimes used the word

=A0 Pan= -Axiom
-
Perhaps some variant of this that migh= -t work. I just added #6 at=A0

=A0 http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/FriCASIc= -on
-
which incorporates all three names.

Bill.<= -br>

On = -25 April 2013 16:07, Eugene Surowitz <Eugene Surowitz>= - wrote:
-
I like the idea of icons/= -logos acknowledging the common history;
-Things that might be used create sufficiently non-infringing are
-style, color, shape, wording.
-
-I'm not quite sure what I mean by 'style'.
-
-As a 'wording' example, to distinguish to things on my product disk= -,
-I label their top directories as:
-
-AXIOM=3DAXIOM =A0AXIOM=3DFRICAS =A0AXIOM=3DOpenAxiom
-
-( "=3D" just is the result of Windows naming limits )
-
-Just ideas; Cheers , Gene
-

- ---bcaec51b157b3b20f504db358030-- - \start Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 17:10:04 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.5 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: , - list, - Gabriel Dos Reis - <5179315A.1040805@hemmecke.org> - - <51798D19.5060002@attglobal.net> - - recognized. +To: Gabriel Dos Reis Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: icons and exprint Publishers have what is known as "Imprints"; @@ -1504,13 +1212,16 @@ common "exprint" while having their own unique icon/trademark. Cheers, Gene On 4/25/2013 4:45 PM, Bill Page wrote: -> I think Gene has a good point also indirectly observed by Gaby: Most of the proposals -> so far may not represent the actual intention of the web site - even if FriCAS is the -> project which is hosting the site. -> -> In the past when trying to refer to any of the original Axiom project, FriCAS or -> OpenAxiom in a neutral way we have sometimes used the word -> + +> I think Gene has a good point also indirectly observed by Gaby: Most +> of the proposals so far may not represent the actual intention of +> the web site - even if FriCAS is the project which is hosting the +> site. + +> In the past when trying to refer to any of the original Axiom +> project, FriCAS or OpenAxiom in a neutral way we have sometimes used +> the word + > PanAxiom > > Perhaps some variant of this that might work. I just added #6 at @@ -1538,28 +1249,13 @@ On 4/25/2013 4:45 PM, Bill Page wrote: > ( "=" just is the result of Windows naming limits ) > > Just ideas; Cheers , Gene -> -> -> -- -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - -> computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to -> fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. -> To post to this group, send email to . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel?hl=en. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -> -> - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:05:30 -0500 +From: Tim Daly To: list -Cc: Kai Kaminski Subject: AXIOM pamphlet file format is now pure latex - +Cc: Kai Kaminski I just ran across this paper: @@ -1570,8 +1266,6 @@ I just ran across this paper: It is a Common Lisp implementation of a tangle program which recognizes NOWEB syntax to delimit chunks in a literate program. - - AXIOM and NOWEB NOWEB was originally chosen for the Axiom project as a language diff --git a/book/2013-05.txt b/book/2013-05.txt index 7fa6f88..71eff7a 100644 --- a/book/2013-05.txt +++ b/book/2013-05.txt @@ -1,30 +1,18 @@ \start Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 09:56:50 -0700 -From: Arthur Ralfs Arthur Ralfs - rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 -To: Mozilla Math Developers - <5189149B.7070100@free.fr> - jWwIRUsCBWq4mGRMu3lCty950XELWECqSApzBNN0eYKHzJXXod - c6T0SW7mrY0EgKNp93B6MKs9ITbsNW3OgYY2aJrhIOOajj+bwJ - NEtQzJ9GV7OVnUxJ1/qWvmprokCDP3NV5e67LzTrbNm9dN8N7H - ij1/C3OvrlDJJu7Dtk+9i1PihDuziyceBZKPALU63BA2e8QOE+ - qWDCLQogv+Ma6pc2R7u4Nvnx6FBFJ6oXm9S1Mi2XSd17qtsHOp - tjOHn9X7ssgPLUoWS4lBSqTefrB6F/LLPT1peR59/MhqPyVl1T - OVjJTirXA1Gnlx+CLjM8= -Cc: "www-math@w3.org" , list, - , open-axiom-devel@lists.sourceforge.net -Subject: Re: Fwd: [mathjax-dev] Requesting feedback about - usefulness of MathML +From: Arthur Ralfs +To: list +Subject: Re: Fwd: [mathjax-dev] Requesting feedback about usefulness of MathML On 05/08/2013 07:51 PM, William F Hammond wrote: -> Frédéric WANG writes: +> Frederic Wang writes: > >> Forwarding this message to relevant mailing lists. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [mathjax-dev] Requesting feedback about usefulness of MathML >> Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT) ->> From: Benoit Jacob +>> From: Benoit Jacob >> Reply-To: mathjax-dev@googlegroups.com >> To: mathjax-dev@googlegroups.com >> @@ -57,33 +45,18 @@ get much support. Thanks for the heads up on this. -Arthur Ralfs - - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Arthur Ralfs Arthur Ralfs - 09 May 2013 09:56:50 -0700) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 16:01:01 -0400 -Cc: www-math@w3.org, dev-tech-mathml@lists.mozilla.org, - , list, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sourceforge.net -Subject: Re: Fwd: [mathjax-dev] Requesting feedback - about usefulness of MathML +From: Tim Daly +To: Arthur Ralfs +Subject: Re: Fwd: [mathjax-dev] Requesting feedback about usefulness of MathML Axiom outputs MathML on it's new browser front end. -Tim Daly - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Tue, 28 May 2013 13:08:23 +0800) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:57:22 -0400 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Re: final document fix patch and what's next (Note: this portion of the reply copied to the mailing list) @@ -130,8 +103,6 @@ stacked blocks), and create new 3D objects (like a parabolic bowl) that can interact with other objects (e.g. a ball in the bowl). -Tim Daly - diff --git a/book/2013-08.txt b/book/2013-08.txt index 56a9e40..8f161c9 100644 --- a/book/2013-08.txt +++ b/book/2013-08.txt @@ -1,13 +1,9 @@ \start -From: Tim Daly -To: "Camm Maguire" Camm Maguire, gcl-devel@gnu.org Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 22:29:01 -0400 (EDT) - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: Axiom build logs -Camm, - I checked the Axiom build log and it appears to be clean. Tim Daly @@ -36,16 +32,10 @@ Tim Daly >git, as this appears to be what the users want. > - \start +Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:17:56 -0400 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:17:56 -0400 - (Tim Daly's message of "Sat, 3 Aug 2013 22:29:01 -0400 (EDT)") -Message-id: <871u68xaqz.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: list, gcl-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Axiom build logs Greetings! Thanks for checking! I am working with the latest axiom @@ -84,28 +74,11 @@ Tim Daly writes: >>4) proceed henceforward with the master and experimental branches in >>git, as this appears to be what the users want. >> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Camm Maguire - Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:17:56 -0400) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 17:49:10 -0400 - [generic] -Cc: list, gcl-devel@gnu.org +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: Re: Axiom build logs >Greetings! Thanks for checking! I am working with the latest axiom @@ -118,21 +91,10 @@ massive rewrite of the lisp code. I grabbed the git repo and I'll do a build with it sometime soon. -Tim - - - \start Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400 From: Eugene Surowitz - Thunderbird/17.0.7 -MIME-version: 1.0 -To: , - list, - Gabriel Dos Reis - - <188dfb5a-0bb2-4450-b515-f8283d2b9e18@googlegroups.com> - recognized. +To: Gabriel Dos Reis Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Noweb and literate programming Your efforts are not for nought; @@ -180,67 +142,49 @@ On 8/6/2013 4:06 AM, Martin Baker wrote: > > > Before giving up entirely on the goal of better documentation however > > I think we need to consider alternatives. -> + > Some time back I started an attempt at an IDE for FriCAS -> http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/es/ -> There wasn't any interest so I didn't take it any further, however one part of the -> code may be of some interest here. -> +> http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/es/ There wasn't any interest so +> I didn't take it any further, however one part of the code may be of +> some interest here. + > There is some code, shown here: -> http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/es/user/ -> which was intended to be a one-off pre-processor so that I could attempt to parse -> SPAD, what this pre-processor does is: -> +> http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/es/user/ which was intended to be +> a one-off pre-processor so that I could attempt to parse SPAD, what +> this pre-processor does is: + > 1) Go through a directory (such as fricas/src/algebra) looking for files called > *.spad.pamphlet > 2) If if finds a match then create a directory of the same name. > 3) Then scan through the file. -> 4) When it finds category, domain or package code (starting like: < NoneFunctions1>>= and ending with @) it puts them in separate .SPAD files in the -> directory it has just created. +> 4) When it finds category, domain or package code (starting like: +> <>= and ending with @) it puts them in +> separate .SPAD files in the directory it has just created. > 5) Everything else in the file is assumed to be modified latex and converted to HTML. -> -> So the end result is a directory, for each pamphlet file, containing multiple SPAD -> files and one HTML file. -> + +> So the end result is a directory, for each pamphlet file, containing +> multiple SPAD files and one HTML file. + > (The preprossessor can also do other stuff like adding curly brackets and > substituting macroes, which you probably don't want, but that can be disabled). -> -> I am just putting this forward as a possible stepping stone to better documentation, -> I would be happy to develop the code if you thought it might help. From here I think -> it would be good to add diagrams and make the structure more hierarchical. -> -> I really do believe in better documentation, I would be sad if I inadvertently -> contributed to a path which lead to worse documentation. I do feel that the literate -> programming movement has the right goals, its just the mechanisms that don't work for -> me. I would like FriCAS to try to enforce better documentation. -> -> Martin -> -> -- -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - -> computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to -> fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. -> To post to this group, send email to . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -> -> +> I am just putting this forward as a possible stepping stone to +> better documentation, I would be happy to develop the code if you +> thought it might help. From here I think it would be good to add +> diagrams and make the structure more hierarchical. + +> I really do believe in better documentation, I would be sad if I +> inadvertently contributed to a path which lead to worse +> documentation. I do feel that the literate programming movement has +> the right goals, its just the mechanisms that don't work for me. I +> would like FriCAS to try to enforce better documentation. + +> Martin \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: gcl-devel@gnu.org,Matt Kaufmann, - "maxima\@math.utexas.edu" , - , - list, - Gabriel Dos Reis , - Donald Winiecki Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400 -Message-id: <8738pvp22f.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. +From: Camm Maguire +To: Matt Kaufmann, Gabriel Dos Reis, Donald Winiecki Subject: GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of stable releases @@ -332,24 +276,11 @@ interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to would-be gcl contributors. -Feedback as always most welcome! - -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 05:37:22 -0700 -To: Camm Maguire From: Henry Baker -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, - gcl-devel@gnu.org, Gabriel Dos Reis , - Matt Kaufmann, - "maxima@math.utexas.edu" , - list +To: Camm Maguire +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Gabriel Dos Reis, Matt Kaufmann Subject: Re: [Maxima] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released Thanks very much to you & the GCL team! @@ -375,7 +306,9 @@ sbcl.exe: stack reserve size : 2097152 (0x200000) bytes peflags --stack-reserve=0x1000000 sbcl.exe sbcl.exe: stack reserve size : 16777216 (0x1000000) bytes -Note that sbcl.exe is a relatively small program which loads the main sbcl.core image. Nevertheless, sbcl.exe sets the amount of stack for the whole program. +Note that sbcl.exe is a relatively small program which loads the main +sbcl.core image. Nevertheless, sbcl.exe sets the amount of stack for +the whole program. 'peflags' can also adjust other settings, as well, including heap size, etc. @@ -469,14 +402,6 @@ At 08:48 AM 8/27/2013, Camm Maguire wrote: >interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, >branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to >would-be gcl contributors. -> ->Feedback as always most welcome! -> ->Take care, ->-- ->Camm Maguire Camm Maguire ->========================================================================== ->"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah diff --git a/book/2013-09.txt b/book/2013-09.txt index c7daee6..35bebd2 100644 --- a/book/2013-09.txt +++ b/book/2013-09.txt @@ -1,6 +1,6 @@ \start Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 22:49:01 -0400 (EDT) -From: Paul Selick +From: Paul Selick To: list Subject: compiling in Axiom @@ -31,16 +31,11 @@ file beyond the name. Can you tell me what I am doing wrong and what would need to be done to get on old *.as file to compile in the modern AXIOM ? Thanks, -Paul Selick - - \start Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2013 15:59:35 +0200 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:17.0) Gecko/20130803 Thunderbird/17.0.8 To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: compiling in Axiom > So I started the interpreter and typed @@ -68,31 +63,19 @@ currently getting a lot of patches and it's a bit hard to keep track. Anyway, it's not possible to use the aldor compiler and produce stand alone programs that use the Axiom library. -Ralf - - - \start -From: Aage Andersen -To: "www . axiom-developer . org" Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 16:10:56 +0200 - recognized. +From: Aage Andersen +To: list Subject: start Just downloaded axiom and installed succesfully. But how do I start it? -=20 -Aage Andersen -=20 - \start Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 16:22:14 -0500 From: Matt Kaufmann To: Camm Maguire - Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400) -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, gcl-devel@gnu.org, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +Cc: Donald Winiecki Subject: Re: GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released Hi, Camm -- @@ -196,24 +179,12 @@ Thanks - Feedback as always most welcome! - Take care, - -- - Camm Maguire Camm Maguire - ========================================================================== - "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - - \start -From: Donald Winiecki Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600 +From: Donald Winiecki To: Matt Kaufmann - [fuzzy] -Cc: , "GCL-devel@gnu.org" , - Camm Maguire, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list Subject: Re: GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released +Cc: Camm Maguire Hi Matt, @@ -222,12 +193,6 @@ and WinXP, WinVista and Win7. 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista or Win7. -Best, - -_don - - - On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: > Hi, Camm -- > @@ -329,26 +294,13 @@ On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: > would-be gcl contributors. > > Feedback as always most welcome! -> -> Take care, -> -- -> Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -> ========================================================================== -> "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah -> - \start Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 16:37:02 -0500 From: Matt Kaufmann To: Donald Winiecki - (message from Donald Winiecki on Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600) - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - -Cc: , gcl-devel@gnu.org, Camm Maguire, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list Subject: Re: GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released +Cc: Camm Maguire Thank you, Don. If there's a complete list of platforms for which ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible one for @@ -357,148 +309,18 @@ know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work. Thanks -- -- Matt - From: Donald Winiecki - Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600 - Cc: Camm Maguire, - "GCL-devel@gnu.org" , maxima@math.utexas.edu, - , - list, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net - - Hi Matt, Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu 12.10 and WinXP, WinVista and Win7. 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista or Win7. - Best, - - _don - - - - On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: - > Hi, Camm -- - > - > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds (i.e., using - > configure option --enable-ansi)? - > - > Thanks - - > -- Matt - > From: Camm Maguire - > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400 - > - > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of stable releases - > at - > - > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz - > and - > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz - > - > Please also see the homepage and release notes at - > - > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl. - > - > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of fixes and - > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native object file - > relocation support. - > - > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number of structural - > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may cause issues for - > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word cons, immediate - > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit machines), and a - > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all compile time limits - > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking tables. 2.6.9 will - > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent constraints of the running - > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures and handling - > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of grace. As this - > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has varying degrees of - > significance in different operating systems, one might still experience - > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such cases, - > - > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)' - > - > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround. - > - > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self tests pass for - > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) itemized below: - > - > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 kfreebsd-amd64 - > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc - > - > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 sparc64 x32 - > - > macosx, windows - > - > *exceptions - > - > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default now but ia64 and - > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit of 1024 files - > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds this limit. As - > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, this is not an - > insurmountable obstacle. - > - > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to brk more than - > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs 1Gb. A - > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming shortly. - > - > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is an as yet - > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on win7. More - > information here will be forthcoming shortly. - > - > Windows installers can be found at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl. - > - > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More recent versions - > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure from detecting the - > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be to - > - > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h" - > - > after configure and before make. - > - > - > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 - > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. Henceforward, - > modifications will be made to git only. As of the present writing, git - > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port of most 2.6.x - > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a 2.7.0 release - > sometime in the future. - > - > For those unfamiliar with git: - > - > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git - > cd gcl - > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc. - > cd gcl - > ./configure && make - > - > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using Egg, an emacs - > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, - > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to - > would-be gcl contributors. - > - > Feedback as always most welcome! - > - > Take care, - > -- - > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire - > ========================================================================== - > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - > - - - \start Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 15:26:17 -0700 -To: Matt Kaufmann From: Henry Baker - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, gcl-devel@gnu.org, - Camm Maguire, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +To: Matt Kaufmann Subject: Re: [Gcl-devel] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Camm Maguire Terrific job! Thanks! @@ -605,28 +427,13 @@ At 02:22 PM 9/4/2013, Matt Kaufmann wrote: > would-be gcl contributors. > > Feedback as always most welcome! -> -> Take care, -> -- -> Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -> ========================================================================== -> "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 17:52:08 -0500 From: Matt Kaufmann -To: John Lapeyre - 05 Sep 2013 00:44:30 +0200) - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <201309042137.r84Lb2s7025295@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - <5227B7CE.4060403@gmail.com> -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, gcl-devel@gnu.org, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +To: John Lapeyre Subject: Re: [Maxima] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released +Cc: Donald Winiecki Thanks. I'm afraid my question wasn't clear (sorry). I know about the --enable-ansi switch (but I appreciate the information about what @@ -646,7 +453,7 @@ to GCL! I'm very happy to see the progress. Regards, Matt Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 00:44:30 +0200 - From: John Lapeyre + From: John Lapeyre CC: Donald Winiecki, , gcl-devel@gnu.org, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, list @@ -807,280 +614,16 @@ Matt > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to > > would-be gcl contributors. - > > - > > Feedback as always most welcome! - > > - > > Take care, - > > -- - > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire - > > - ========================================================================== - > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - > > - > - > _______________________________________________ - > Maxima mailing list - > Maxima@math.utexas.edu - > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima - - - - --------------060608030209050904060606 - Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 - Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - - - - - - - On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote:
- > Thank you, Don. If there's a - complete list of platforms for which
- > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible - one for
- > 2.6.8 as well, I'd be interested. In particular, it would be - nice to
- > know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work.
-
- On x86_64 linux, I built gcl 2.6.8, and 2.6.9 with
-
- ./configure --enable-readline --enable-ansi - --prefix=/usr/local/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
-
- and maxima with
-
- export GCL_ANSI=y
- ./configure --enable-gcl --prefix=/usr/local/maxima-5.31.0-gcl-2.6.8 - (9) --with-gcl=/usr/local/bin/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
-
- Maxima passed all tests, for each of 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
-
- I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says.
-
-  --enable-ansi builds a large gcl aiming for ansi compliance
-
- I built Maxima with the latest stable versions - gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl,
- and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load - asdf.
-
-
- >
- > Thanks --
- > -- Matt
- > From: Donald Winiecki <Donald Winiecki>
- > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600
- > Cc: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>,
- > "GCL-devel@gnu.org" <gcl-devel@gnu.org>, - maxima@math.utexas.edu,
- > ,
- > Axiom-Developer <list>,
- > open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net
- >
- > Hi Matt,
- >
- > Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu - 12.10
- > and WinXP, WinVista and Win7.
- >
- > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista - or Win7.
- >
- > Best,
- >
- > _don
- >
- >
- >
- > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann - <Matt Kaufmann> wrote:
- > > Hi, Camm --
- > >
- > > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds - (i.e., using
- > > configure option --enable-ansi)?
- > >
- > > Thanks -
- > > -- Matt
- > > From: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>
- > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400
- > >
- > > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of - stable releases
- > > at
- > >
- > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz
- > > and
- > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz
- > >
- > > Please also see the homepage and release notes at
- > >
- > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl.
- > >
- > > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of - fixes and
- > > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native - object file
- > > relocation support.
- > >
- > > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number - of structural
- > > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may - cause issues for
- > > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word - cons, immediate
- > > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit - machines), and a
- > > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all - compile time limits
- > > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking - tables. 2.6.9 will
- > > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent - constraints of the running
- > > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures - and handling
- > > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of - grace. As this
- > > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has - varying degrees of
- > > significance in different operating systems, one might - still experience
- > > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such - cases,
- > >
- > > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)'
- > >
- > > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround.
- > >
- > > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self - tests pass for
- > > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) - itemized below:
- > >
- > > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 - kfreebsd-amd64
- > > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc
- > >
- > > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 - sparc64 x32
- > >
- > > macosx, windows
- > >
- > > *exceptions
- > >
- > > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default - now but ia64 and
- > > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit - of 1024 files
- > > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds - this limit. As
- > > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, - this is not an
- > > insurmountable obstacle.
- > >
- > > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to - brk more than
- > > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs - 1Gb. A
- > > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming - shortly.
- > >
- > > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is - an as yet
- > > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on - win7. More
- > > information here will be forthcoming shortly.
- > >
- > > Windows installers can be found at - ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl.
- > >
- > > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More - recent versions
- > > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure - from detecting the
- > > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be - to
- > >
- > > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h"
- > >
- > > after configure and before make.
- > >
- > >
- > > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The - 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
- > > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. - Henceforward,
- > > modifications will be made to git only. As of the - present writing, git
- > > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port - of most 2.6.x
- > > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a - 2.7.0 release
- > > sometime in the future.
- > >
- > > For those unfamiliar with git:
- > >
- > > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git
- > > cd gcl
- > > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc.
- > > cd gcl
- > > ./configure && make
- > >
- > > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using - Egg, an emacs
- > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, - logging, bisecting,
- > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I - recommend this tool to
- > > would-be gcl contributors.
- > >
- > > Feedback as always most welcome!
- > >
- > > Take care,
- > > --
- > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire
- > > - ==========================================================================
- > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its - citizens." -- Baha'u'llah
- > >
- >
- > _______________________________________________
- > Maxima mailing list
- > Maxima@math.utexas.edu
- > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima
-
-
- - - - --------------060608030209050904060606-- - - \start -From: Donald Winiecki Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 18:47:19 -0600 +From: Donald Winiecki To: Matt Kaufmann - [fuzzy] -Cc: , John Lapeyre , - "GCL-devel@gnu.org" , - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +Cc: John Lapeyre Subject: Re: [Maxima] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released -Apologies Matt, - We'll wait on Camm for a definitive response to your question. -Best, - -_don - - - On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: > Thanks. I'm afraid my question wasn't clear (sorry). I know about > the --enable-ansi switch (but I appreciate the information about what @@ -1099,439 +642,14 @@ On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: > > Regards, > Matt -> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 00:44:30 +0200 -> From: John Lapeyre -> CC: Donald Winiecki, , -> gcl-devel@gnu.org, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, -> maxima@math.utexas.edu, list -> -> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -> --------------060608030209050904060606 -> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed -> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -> -> On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: -> > Thank you, Don. If there's a complete list of platforms for which -> > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible one for -> > 2.6.8 as well, I'd be interested. In particular, it would be nice to -> > know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work. -> -> On x86_64 linux, I built gcl 2.6.8, and 2.6.9 with -> -> ./configure --enable-readline --enable-ansi -> --prefix=/usr/local/gcl-2.6.8 (9) -> -> and maxima with -> -> export GCL_ANSI=y -> ./configure --enable-gcl --prefix=/usr/local/maxima-5.31.0-gcl-2.6.8 (9) -> --with-gcl=/usr/local/bin/gcl-2.6.8 (9) -> -> Maxima passed all tests, for each of 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 -> -> I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says. -> -> --enable-ansi builds a large gcl aiming for ansi compliance -> -> I built Maxima with the latest stable versions gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl, -> and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load asdf. -> -> -> > -> > Thanks -- -> > -- Matt -> > From: Donald Winiecki -> > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600 -> > Cc: Camm Maguire, -> > "GCL-devel@gnu.org" , maxima@math.utexas.edu, -> > , -> > list, -> > open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net -> > -> > Hi Matt, -> > -> > Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu 12.10 -> > and WinXP, WinVista and Win7. -> > -> > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista or Win7. -> > -> > Best, -> > -> > _don -> > -> > -> > -> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann -> wrote: -> > > Hi, Camm -- -> > > -> > > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds (i.e., using -> > > configure option --enable-ansi)? -> > > -> > > Thanks - -> > > -- Matt -> > > From: Camm Maguire -> > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400 -> > > -> > > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of stable releases -> > > at -> > > -> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz -> > > and -> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz -> > > -> > > Please also see the homepage and release notes at -> > > -> > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl. -> > > -> > > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of fixes and -> > > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native object file -> > > relocation support. -> > > -> > > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number of structural -> > > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may cause issues for -> > > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word cons, immediate -> > > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit machines), and a -> > > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all compile time limits -> > > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking tables. 2.6.9 will -> > > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent constraints of the running -> > > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures and handling -> > > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of grace. As this -> > > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has varying degrees of -> > > significance in different operating systems, one might still experience -> > > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such cases, -> > > -> > > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)' -> > > -> > > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround. -> > > -> > > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self tests pass for -> > > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) itemized below: -> > > -> > > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 kfreebsd-amd64 -> > > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc -> > > -> > > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 sparc64 x32 -> > > -> > > macosx, windows -> > > -> > > *exceptions -> > > -> > > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default now but ia64 and -> > > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit of 1024 files -> > > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds this limit. As -> > > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, this is not an -> > > insurmountable obstacle. -> > > -> > > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to brk more than -> > > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs 1Gb. A -> > > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming shortly. -> > > -> > > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is an as yet -> > > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on win7. More -> > > information here will be forthcoming shortly. -> > > -> > > Windows installers can be found at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl. -> > > -> > > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More recent versions -> > > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure from detecting the -> > > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be to -> > > -> > > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h" -> > > -> > > after configure and before make. -> > > -> > > -> > > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 -> > > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. Henceforward, -> > > modifications will be made to git only. As of the present writing, git -> > > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port of most 2.6.x -> > > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a 2.7.0 release -> > > sometime in the future. -> > > -> > > For those unfamiliar with git: -> > > -> > > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git -> > > cd gcl -> > > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc. -> > > cd gcl -> > > ./configure && make -> > > -> > > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using Egg, an emacs -> > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, -> > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to -> > > would-be gcl contributors. -> > > -> > > Feedback as always most welcome! -> > > -> > > Take care, -> > > -- -> > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -> > > -> ========================================================================== -> > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah -> > > -> > -> > _______________________________________________ -> > Maxima mailing list -> > Maxima@math.utexas.edu -> > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima -> -> -> -> --------------060608030209050904060606 -> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 -> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -> -> -> -> http-equiv="Content-Type"> -> -> -> On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote:
-> > Thank you, Don. If there's a -> complete list of platforms for which
-> > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible -> one for
-> > 2.6.8 as well, I'd be interested. In particular, it would be -> nice to
-> > know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work.
->
-> On x86_64 linux, I built gcl 2.6.8, and 2.6.9 with
->
-> ./configure --enable-readline --enable-ansi -> --prefix=/usr/local/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
->
-> and maxima with
->
-> export GCL_ANSI=y
-> ./configure --enable-gcl --prefix=/usr/local/maxima-5.31.0-gcl-2.6.8 -> (9) --with-gcl=/usr/local/bin/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
->
-> Maxima passed all tests, for each of 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
->
-> I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says.
->
->  --enable-ansi builds a large gcl aiming for ansi compliance
->
-> I built Maxima with the latest stable versions -> gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl,
-> and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load -> asdf.
->
->
-> >
-> > Thanks --
-> > -- Matt
-> > From: Donald Winiecki <Donald Winiecki>
-> > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600
-> > Cc: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>,
-> > "GCL-devel@gnu.org" <gcl-devel@gnu.org>, -> maxima@math.utexas.edu,
-> > ,
-> > Axiom-Developer <list>,
-> > open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net
-> >
-> > Hi Matt,
-> >
-> > Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu -> 12.10
-> > and WinXP, WinVista and Win7.
-> >
-> > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista -> or Win7.
-> >
-> > Best,
-> >
-> > _don
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann -> <Matt Kaufmann> wrote:
-> > > Hi, Camm --
-> > >
-> > > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds -> (i.e., using
-> > > configure option --enable-ansi)?
-> > >
-> > > Thanks -
-> > > -- Matt
-> > > From: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>
-> > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400
-> > >
-> > > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of -> stable releases
-> > > at
-> > >
-> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz
-> > > and
-> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz
-> > >
-> > > Please also see the homepage and release notes at
-> > >
-> > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl.
-> > >
-> > > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of -> fixes and
-> > > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native -> object file
-> > > relocation support.
-> > >
-> > > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number -> of structural
-> > > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may -> cause issues for
-> > > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word -> cons, immediate
-> > > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit -> machines), and a
-> > > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all -> compile time limits
-> > > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking -> tables. 2.6.9 will
-> > > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent -> constraints of the running
-> > > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures -> and handling
-> > > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of -> grace. As this
-> > > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has -> varying degrees of
-> > > significance in different operating systems, one might -> still experience
-> > > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such -> cases,
-> > >
-> > > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)'
-> > >
-> > > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround.
-> > >
-> > > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self -> tests pass for
-> > > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) -> itemized below:
-> > >
-> > > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 -> kfreebsd-amd64
-> > > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc
-> > >
-> > > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 -> sparc64 x32
-> > >
-> > > macosx, windows
-> > >
-> > > *exceptions
-> > >
-> > > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default -> now but ia64 and
-> > > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit -> of 1024 files
-> > > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds -> this limit. As
-> > > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, -> this is not an
-> > > insurmountable obstacle.
-> > >
-> > > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to -> brk more than
-> > > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs -> 1Gb. A
-> > > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming -> shortly.
-> > >
-> > > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is -> an as yet
-> > > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on -> win7. More
-> > > information here will be forthcoming shortly.
-> > >
-> > > Windows installers can be found at -> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl.
-> > >
-> > > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More -> recent versions
-> > > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure -> from detecting the
-> > > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be -> to
-> > >
-> > > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h"
-> > >
-> > > after configure and before make.
-> > >
-> > >
-> > > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The -> 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
-> > > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. -> Henceforward,
-> > > modifications will be made to git only. As of the -> present writing, git
-> > > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port -> of most 2.6.x
-> > > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a -> 2.7.0 release
-> > > sometime in the future.
-> > >
-> > > For those unfamiliar with git:
-> > >
-> > > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git
-> > > cd gcl
-> > > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc.
-> > > cd gcl
-> > > ./configure && make
-> > >
-> > > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using -> Egg, an emacs
-> > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, -> logging, bisecting,
-> > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I -> recommend this tool to
-> > > would-be gcl contributors.
-> > >
-> > > Feedback as always most welcome!
-> > >
-> > > Take care,
-> > > --
-> > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire
-> > > -> ==========================================================================
-> > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its -> citizens." -- Baha'u'llah
-> > >
-> >
-> > _______________________________________________
-> > Maxima mailing list
-> > Maxima@math.utexas.edu
-> > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima
->
->
-> -> -> -> --------------060608030209050904060606-- -> - \start Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 00:44:30 +0200 -From: John Lapeyre - rv:10.0.7) Gecko/20120922 Icedove/10.0.7 +From: John Lapeyre To: Matt Kaufmann - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <201309042137.r84Lb2s7025295@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - boundary="------------060608030209050904060606" - (bad octet value). -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, - gcl-devel@gnu.org, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - maxima@math.utexas.edu, list +Cc: Donald Winieck Subject: Re: [Maxima] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released -This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------060608030209050904060606 - On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: > Thank you, Don. If there's a complete list of platforms for which > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible one for @@ -1558,7 +676,6 @@ I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says. I built Maxima with the latest stable versions gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl, and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load asdf. - > > Thanks -- > -- Matt @@ -1577,381 +694,13 @@ and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load asdf. > > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista or Win7. > -> Best, -> -> _don -> -> -> -> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann -wrote: -> > Hi, Camm -- -> > -> > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds (i.e., using -> > configure option --enable-ansi)? -> > -> > Thanks - -> > -- Matt -> > From: Camm Maguire -> > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400 -> > -> > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of stable releases -> > at -> > -> > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz -> > and -> > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz -> > -> > Please also see the homepage and release notes at -> > -> > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl. -> > -> > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of fixes and -> > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native object file -> > relocation support. -> > -> > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number of structural -> > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may cause issues for -> > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word cons, immediate -> > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit machines), and a -> > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all compile time limits -> > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking tables. 2.6.9 will -> > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent constraints of the running -> > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures and handling -> > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of grace. As this -> > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has varying degrees of -> > significance in different operating systems, one might still experience -> > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such cases, -> > -> > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)' -> > -> > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround. -> > -> > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self tests pass for -> > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) itemized below: -> > -> > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 kfreebsd-amd64 -> > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc -> > -> > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 sparc64 x32 -> > -> > macosx, windows -> > -> > *exceptions -> > -> > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default now but ia64 and -> > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit of 1024 files -> > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds this limit. As -> > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, this is not an -> > insurmountable obstacle. -> > -> > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to brk more than -> > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs 1Gb. A -> > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming shortly. -> > -> > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is an as yet -> > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on win7. More -> > information here will be forthcoming shortly. -> > -> > Windows installers can be found at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl. -> > -> > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More recent versions -> > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure from detecting the -> > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be to -> > -> > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h" -> > -> > after configure and before make. -> > -> > -> > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 -> > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. Henceforward, -> > modifications will be made to git only. As of the present writing, git -> > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port of most 2.6.x -> > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a 2.7.0 release -> > sometime in the future. -> > -> > For those unfamiliar with git: -> > -> > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git -> > cd gcl -> > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc. -> > cd gcl -> > ./configure && make -> > -> > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using Egg, an emacs -> > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, -> > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to -> > would-be gcl contributors. -> > -> > Feedback as always most welcome! -> > -> > Take care, -> > -- -> > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -> > -========================================================================== -> > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah -> > -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Maxima mailing list -> Maxima@math.utexas.edu -> http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima - - - ---------------060608030209050904060606 - - - - - - - On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote:
- > Thank you, Don. If there's a - complete list of platforms for which
- > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible - one for
- > 2.6.8 as well, I'd be interested. In particular, it would be - nice to
- > know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work.
-
- On x86_64 linux, I built gcl 2.6.8, and 2.6.9 with
-
- ./configure --enable-readline --enable-ansi - --prefix=/usr/local/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
-
- and maxima with
-
- export GCL_ANSI=y
- ./configure --enable-gcl --prefix=/usr/local/maxima-5.31.0-gcl-2.6.8 - (9) --with-gcl=/usr/local/bin/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
-
- Maxima passed all tests, for each of 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
-
- I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says.
-
-  --enable-ansi builds a large gcl aiming for ansi compliance
-
- I built Maxima with the latest stable versions - gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl,
- and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load - asdf.
-
-
- >
- > Thanks --
- > -- Matt
- > From: Donald Winiecki <Donald Winiecki>
- > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600
- > Cc: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>,
- > "GCL-devel@gnu.org" <gcl-devel@gnu.org>, - maxima@math.utexas.edu,
- > ,
- > Axiom-Developer <list>,
- > open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net
- >
- > Hi Matt,
- >
- > Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu - 12.10
- > and WinXP, WinVista and Win7.
- >
- > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista - or Win7.
- >
- > Best,
- >
- > _don
- >
- >
- >
- > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann - <Matt Kaufmann> wrote:
- > > Hi, Camm --
- > >
- > > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds - (i.e., using
- > > configure option --enable-ansi)?
- > >
- > > Thanks -
- > > -- Matt
- > > From: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>
- > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400
- > >
- > > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of - stable releases
- > > at
- > >
- > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz
- > > and
- > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz
- > >
- > > Please also see the homepage and release notes at
- > >
- > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl.
- > >
- > > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of - fixes and
- > > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native - object file
- > > relocation support.
- > >
- > > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number - of structural
- > > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may - cause issues for
- > > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word - cons, immediate
- > > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit - machines), and a
- > > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all - compile time limits
- > > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking - tables. 2.6.9 will
- > > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent - constraints of the running
- > > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures - and handling
- > > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of - grace. As this
- > > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has - varying degrees of
- > > significance in different operating systems, one might - still experience
- > > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such - cases,
- > >
- > > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)'
- > >
- > > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround.
- > >
- > > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self - tests pass for
- > > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) - itemized below:
- > >
- > > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 - kfreebsd-amd64
- > > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc
- > >
- > > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 - sparc64 x32
- > >
- > > macosx, windows
- > >
- > > *exceptions
- > >
- > > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default - now but ia64 and
- > > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit - of 1024 files
- > > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds - this limit. As
- > > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, - this is not an
- > > insurmountable obstacle.
- > >
- > > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to - brk more than
- > > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs - 1Gb. A
- > > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming - shortly.
- > >
- > > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is - an as yet
- > > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on - win7. More
- > > information here will be forthcoming shortly.
- > >
- > > Windows installers can be found at - ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl.
- > >
- > > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More - recent versions
- > > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure - from detecting the
- > > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be - to
- > >
- > > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h"
- > >
- > > after configure and before make.
- > >
- > >
- > > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The - 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
- > > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. - Henceforward,
- > > modifications will be made to git only. As of the - present writing, git
- > > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port - of most 2.6.x
- > > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a - 2.7.0 release
- > > sometime in the future.
- > >
- > > For those unfamiliar with git:
- > >
- > > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git
- > > cd gcl
- > > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc.
- > > cd gcl
- > > ./configure && make
- > >
- > > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using - Egg, an emacs
- > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, - logging, bisecting,
- > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I - recommend this tool to
- > > would-be gcl contributors.
- > >
- > > Feedback as always most welcome!
- > >
- > > Take care,
- > > --
- > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire
- > > -==========================================================================
- > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its - citizens." -- Baha'u'llah
- > >
- >
- > _______________________________________________
- > Maxima mailing list
- > Maxima@math.utexas.edu
- > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima
-
-
- - - ---------------060608030209050904060606-- - \start +Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:35:01 -0400 From: Camm Maguire To: Matt Kaufmann - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <201309042137.r84Lb2s7025295@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> <5227B7CE.4060403@gmail.com> - <201309042252.r84Mq80K027574@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> -Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:35:01 -0400 - (Matt Kaufmann's message of "Wed, 4 Sep 2013 17:52:08 -0500") -Message-id: <8761ueggru.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, - John Lapeyre , gcl-devel@gnu.org, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list Subject: Re: [Maxima] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released - -Greetings! +Cc: Donald Winiecki, John Lapeyre Matt, AFAICS, all the acl2/ansi work is in both 2.6.8 and 2.6.9. These are (approximately) @@ -1989,454 +738,17 @@ Matt Kaufmann writes: > > Regards, > Matt -> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 00:44:30 +0200 -> From: John Lapeyre -> CC: Donald Winiecki, , -> gcl-devel@gnu.org, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, -> maxima@math.utexas.edu, list -> -> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -> --------------060608030209050904060606 -> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed -> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -> -> On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: -> > Thank you, Don. If there's a complete list of platforms for which -> > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible one for -> > 2.6.8 as well, I'd be interested. In particular, it would be nice to -> > know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work. -> -> On x86_64 linux, I built gcl 2.6.8, and 2.6.9 with -> -> ./configure --enable-readline --enable-ansi -> --prefix=/usr/local/gcl-2.6.8 (9) -> -> and maxima with -> -> export GCL_ANSI=y -> ./configure --enable-gcl --prefix=/usr/local/maxima-5.31.0-gcl-2.6.8 (9) -> --with-gcl=/usr/local/bin/gcl-2.6.8 (9) -> -> Maxima passed all tests, for each of 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 -> -> I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says. -> -> --enable-ansi builds a large gcl aiming for ansi compliance -> -> I built Maxima with the latest stable versions gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl, -> and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load asdf. -> -> -> > -> > Thanks -- -> > -- Matt -> > From: Donald Winiecki -> > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600 -> > Cc: Camm Maguire, -> > "GCL-devel@gnu.org" , maxima@math.utexas.edu, -> > , -> > list, -> > open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net -> > -> > Hi Matt, -> > -> > Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu 12.10 -> > and WinXP, WinVista and Win7. -> > -> > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista or Win7. -> > -> > Best, -> > -> > _don -> > -> > -> > -> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann -> wrote: -> > > Hi, Camm -- -> > > -> > > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds (i.e., using -> > > configure option --enable-ansi)? -> > > -> > > Thanks - -> > > -- Matt -> > > From: Camm Maguire -> > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400 -> > > -> > > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of stable releases -> > > at -> > > -> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz -> > > and -> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz -> > > -> > > Please also see the homepage and release notes at -> > > -> > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl. -> > > -> > > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of fixes and -> > > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native object file -> > > relocation support. -> > > -> > > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number of structural -> > > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may cause issues for -> > > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word cons, immediate -> > > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit machines), and a -> > > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all compile time limits -> > > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking tables. 2.6.9 will -> > > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent constraints of the running -> > > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures and handling -> > > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of grace. As this -> > > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has varying degrees of -> > > significance in different operating systems, one might still experience -> > > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such cases, -> > > -> > > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)' -> > > -> > > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround. -> > > -> > > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self tests pass for -> > > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) itemized below: -> > > -> > > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 kfreebsd-amd64 -> > > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc -> > > -> > > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 sparc64 x32 -> > > -> > > macosx, windows -> > > -> > > *exceptions -> > > -> > > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default now but ia64 and -> > > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit of 1024 files -> > > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds this limit. As -> > > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, this is not an -> > > insurmountable obstacle. -> > > -> > > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to brk more than -> > > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs 1Gb. A -> > > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming shortly. -> > > -> > > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is an as yet -> > > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on win7. More -> > > information here will be forthcoming shortly. -> > > -> > > Windows installers can be found at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl. -> > > -> > > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More recent versions -> > > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure from detecting the -> > > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be to -> > > -> > > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h" -> > > -> > > after configure and before make. -> > > -> > > -> > > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 -> > > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. Henceforward, -> > > modifications will be made to git only. As of the present writing, git -> > > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port of most 2.6.x -> > > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a 2.7.0 release -> > > sometime in the future. -> > > -> > > For those unfamiliar with git: -> > > -> > > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git -> > > cd gcl -> > > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc. -> > > cd gcl -> > > ./configure && make -> > > -> > > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using Egg, an emacs -> > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, logging, bisecting, -> > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I recommend this tool to -> > > would-be gcl contributors. -> > > -> > > Feedback as always most welcome! -> > > -> > > Take care, -> > > -- -> > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -> > > -> ========================================================================== -> > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah -> > > -> > -> > _______________________________________________ -> > Maxima mailing list -> > Maxima@math.utexas.edu -> > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima -> -> -> -> --------------060608030209050904060606 -> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 -> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -> -> -> -> http-equiv="Content-Type"> -> -> -> On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote:
-> > Thank you, Don. If there's a -> complete list of platforms for which
-> > ANSI builds are expected to work for 2.6.9, and if possible -> one for
-> > 2.6.8 as well, I'd be interested. In particular, it would be -> nice to
-> > know whether 2.6.9 ANSI builds on Linux are expected to work.
->
-> On x86_64 linux, I built gcl 2.6.8, and 2.6.9 with
->
-> ./configure --enable-readline --enable-ansi -> --prefix=/usr/local/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
->
-> and maxima with
->
-> export GCL_ANSI=y
-> ./configure --enable-gcl --prefix=/usr/local/maxima-5.31.0-gcl-2.6.8 -> (9) --with-gcl=/usr/local/bin/gcl-2.6.8 (9)
->
-> Maxima passed all tests, for each of 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
->
-> I'm not sure what the flag does, but the doc says.
->
->  --enable-ansi builds a large gcl aiming for ansi compliance
->
-> I built Maxima with the latest stable versions -> gcl,ccl,cmucl,clisp,sbcl,ecl,
-> and gcl (2.6.8 and 2.6.9 ) is the only one that still fails to load -> asdf.
->
->
-> >
-> > Thanks --
-> > -- Matt
-> > From: Donald Winiecki <Donald Winiecki>
-> > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 15:32:02 -0600
-> > Cc: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>,
-> > "GCL-devel@gnu.org" <gcl-devel@gnu.org>, -> maxima@math.utexas.edu,
-> > ,
-> > Axiom-Developer <list>,
-> > open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net
-> >
-> > Hi Matt,
-> >
-> > Right now, both 2.6.8 builds both CLtL1 and ANSI on my Ubuntu -> 12.10
-> > and WinXP, WinVista and Win7.
-> >
-> > 2.6.9 builds CLtL1 and ANSI on WinXP, but not yet on WinVista -> or Win7.
-> >
-> > Best,
-> >
-> > _don
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Matt Kaufmann -> <Matt Kaufmann> wrote:
-> > > Hi, Camm --
-> > >
-> > > Should we expect 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 to support ANSI builds -> (i.e., using
-> > > configure option --enable-ansi)?
-> > >
-> > > Thanks -
-> > > -- Matt
-> > > From: Camm Maguire <Camm Maguire>
-> > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:48:24 -0400
-> > >
-> > > Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce a pair of -> stable releases
-> > > at
-> > >
-> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.8.tar.gz
-> > > and
-> > > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl/gcl_2.6.9.tar.gz
-> > >
-> > > Please also see the homepage and release notes at
-> > >
-> > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl.
-> > >
-> > > The 2.6.8 release represents several years worth of -> fixes and
-> > > enhancements, notably a great extension of GCL's native -> object file
-> > > relocation support.
-> > >
-> > > 2.6.9 is released concurrently as it contains a number -> of structural
-> > > improvements which, while passing all our tests, may -> cause issues for
-> > > some people. These improvements are chiefly a two word -> cons, immediate
-> > > fixnum support, word sized fixnums (64bits on 64bit -> machines), and a
-> > > 'dynamic maxpage' implementation, which removes all -> compile time limits
-> > > to the heap size and auxiliary typing and marking -> tables. 2.6.9 will
-> > > attempt to manage the heap given the apparent -> constraints of the running
-> > > system, with the goal of eliminating allocation failures -> and handling
-> > > out of memory conditions in advance with a modicum of -> grace. As this
-> > > involves a runtime startup probe of brk, which has -> varying degrees of
-> > > significance in different operating systems, one might -> still experience
-> > > overallocation of memory (notably on hurd). In such -> cases,
-> > >
-> > > gcl -eval '(si::set-log-maxpage-bound x)'
-> > >
-> > > will limit the heap to 2^x bytes as a workaround.
-> > >
-> > > All gcl, maxima, acl2, axiom, and hol88 builds and self -> tests pass for
-> > > the following platforms, with noted exceptions(*) -> itemized below:
-> > >
-> > > debian: amd64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 ia64 -> kfreebsd-amd64
-> > > kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 s390x sparc
-> > >
-> > > debian-ports: alpha hppa m68k powerpcspe ppc64 sh4 -> sparc64 x32
-> > >
-> > > macosx, windows
-> > >
-> > > *exceptions
-> > >
-> > > 1) all systems use native object relocation by default -> now but ia64 and
-> > > ppc64, which use dlopen. Thus there is a typical limit -> of 1024 files
-> > > that can be loaded, and the current acl2 build exceeds -> this limit. As
-> > > this bound is runtime configurable with root access, -> this is not an
-> > > insurmountable obstacle.
-> > >
-> > > 2) kfreebsd-i386 systems do not appear to allow one to -> brk more than
-> > > 500M of memory, and the acl2 certification process needs -> 1Gb. A
-> > > solution here is as yet unknown but may be forthcoming -> shortly.
-> > >
-> > > 3) windows builds have been performed on win95. There is -> an as yet
-> > > unidentified runtime error running the 2.6.9 images on -> win7. More
-> > > information here will be forthcoming shortly.
-> > >
-> > > Windows installers can be found at -> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcl.
-> > >
-> > > 4) macosx builds have been tested on snow leopard. More -> recent versions
-> > > appear to have a linker bug which prevents configure -> from detecting the
-> > > provided profil() routine. A workaround here should be -> to
-> > >
-> > > echo "#undef NO_PROFILE >>h/config.h"
-> > >
-> > > after configure and before make.
-> > >
-> > >
-> > > GCL has moved to the git version control system. The -> 2.6.8 and 2.6.9
-> > > branches and tags are identical in cvs and git. -> Henceforward,
-> > > modifications will be made to git only. As of the -> present writing, git
-> > > contains a merge of experimental into master, and a port -> of most 2.6.x
-> > > improvements into master. This will form the basis of a -> 2.7.0 release
-> > > sometime in the future.
-> > >
-> > > For those unfamiliar with git:
-> > >
-> > > git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/gcl.git
-> > > cd gcl
-> > > git checkout master, or git checkout Version_2_6_9, etc.
-> > > cd gcl
-> > > ./configure && make
-> > >
-> > > git can of course provide much more. I'm currently using -> Egg, an emacs
-> > > interface to git, with increasing success. Merging, -> logging, bisecting,
-> > > branching, and uploading appear much simpler. I -> recommend this tool to
-> > > would-be gcl contributors.
-> > >
-> > > Feedback as always most welcome!
-> > >
-> > > Take care,
-> > > --
-> > > Camm Maguire Camm Maguire
-> > > -> ==========================================================================
-> > > "The earth is but one country, and mankind its -> citizens." -- Baha'u'llah
-> > >
-> >
-> > _______________________________________________
-> > Maxima mailing list
-> > Maxima@math.utexas.edu
-> > http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima
->
->
-> -> -> -> --------------060608030209050904060606-- -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Maxima mailing list -> Maxima@math.utexas.edu -> http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima -> -> -> -> - --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: John Lapeyre - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <201309042137.r84Lb2s7025295@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> <5227B7CE.4060403@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:41:45 -0400 - (John Lapeyre's message of "Thu, 05 Sep 2013 00:44:30 +0200") -Message-id: <871u52gggm.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, - gcl-devel@gnu.org, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - Matt Kaufmann, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +From: Camm Maguire +To: John Lapeyre Subject: Re: [Maxima] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Matt Kaufmann Greetings, and thanks for the testing! -John Lapeyre writes: +John Lapeyre writes: > On 09/04/2013 11:37 PM, Matt Kaufmann wrote: >> Thank you, Don. If there's a complete list of platforms for which @@ -2492,27 +804,11 @@ I suppose I should look at this at some point. I never really understood it. I always wondered why it had to be so complex, and what was wrong with make. -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start +Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:42:28 -0400 From: Camm Maguire To: Henry Baker - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - -Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:42:28 -0400 - (Henry Baker's message of "Wed, 04 Sep 2013 15:26:17 -0700") -Message-id: <87wqmuf1uz.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, gcl-devel@gnu.org, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - Matt Kaufmann, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Matt Kaufmann Subject: Re: [Gcl-devel] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released Greetings! And thanks for your feedback! @@ -2526,25 +822,11 @@ Henry Baker writes: Not yet. Is this important? -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start +Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:54:45 -0400 From: Camm Maguire To: Tim Daly -Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:54:45 -0400 - (Tim Daly's message of "Tue, 3 Sep 2013 23:00:02 -0400 (EDT)") -Message-id: <87ppsmf1ai.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, - "GCL-devel@gnu.org" , open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - Matt Kaufmann, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Matt Kaufmann Subject: Call for Windows Vista/7 MINGW remote vnc access Hi Tim! Please excuse the large cc list, but this has come up @@ -2579,30 +861,12 @@ Alas, I know nothing of Windows. Perhaps someone here can help? Does anyone else already have vnc access to a win vista/mingw machine or higher? -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start +Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 11:23:10 -0400 From: Camm Maguire To: Matt Kaufmann - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <201309042137.r84Lb2s7025295@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> -Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 11:23:10 -0400 - (Matt Kaufmann's message of "Wed, 4 Sep 2013 16:37:02 -0500") -Message-id: <87hadyezz5.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, - gcl-devel@gnu.org, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - maxima@math.utexas.edu, list Subject: Re: GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released - -Greetings! +Cc: Donald Winiecki Matt Kaufmann writes: @@ -2633,24 +897,11 @@ no access to latest macosx (2?) version(s) no access to latest 3 windows versions or working emulators. sporadic access by request to a few of the linux debian-ports targets -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 08:50:29 -0700 -To: Camm Maguire From: Henry Baker - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <87wqmuf1uz.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, gcl-devel@gnu.org, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - Matt Kaufmann, maxima@math.utexas.edu, - list +To: Camm Maguire +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Matt Kaufmann Subject: Re: [Gcl-devel] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released UTF8 isn't 'critical', but not having it means that interfacing with @@ -2666,32 +917,13 @@ At 07:42 AM 9/6/2013, Camm Maguire wrote: >> I just looked through the release notes. Do any versions of GCL support UTF8 ? > >Not yet. Is this important? -> ->Take care, ->-- ->Camm Maguire Camm Maguire ->========================================================================== ->"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 18:02:40 GMT -From: Leo Butler +From: Leo Butler To: Henry Baker - from Henry Baker on Fri, 6 Sep 2013 08:50:29 -0700) - <201309042122.r84LMEXt024883@sloth.cs.utexas.edu> - - <87wqmuf1uz.fsf@maguirefamily.org> - -MIME-version: 1.0 - r86I2jDP001534 - recognized. -Cc: , Donald Winiecki, gcl-devel@gnu.org, - Camm Maguire, open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - Matt Kaufmann, maxima@math.utexas.edu, list -Subject: Re: [Maxima] [Gcl-devel] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are - released +Subject: Re: [Maxima] [Gcl-devel] GCL 2.6.8 and 2.6.9 are released +Cc: Donald Winiecki, Camm Maguire, Matt Kaufmann From: Henry Baker @@ -2739,19 +971,10 @@ to use utf8 chars in maxima. This works fine in emacs and (sort of) in xmaxima. Wxmaxima does not display wide chars correctly and I have not chased a solution. -Leo - - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: gcl-devel@gnu.org,Matt Kaufmann, - , Donald Winiecki, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net, - maxima@math.utexas.edu, list Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:59:02 -0400 -Message-id: <87mwn9sxyx.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. +From: Camm Maguire +To: Matt Kaufmann, Donald Winiecki Subject: Version_2_6_10pre Greetings! This branch contains some quick fixups to the 2.6.9 release: @@ -2788,10 +1011,4 @@ software. Nevertheless, if someone might isolate any performance degradation issues in the next few days, I'll try to get a fix in to 2.6.10. -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - diff --git a/book/2013-10.txt b/book/2013-10.txt index 6b4f7a9..8e314a4 100644 --- a/book/2013-10.txt +++ b/book/2013-10.txt @@ -1,11 +1,9 @@ \start Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:38:05 +0200 (CEST) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: About finite fields - I realized that when constructing finite fields providing a user choosen polynomial, Axiom doesn't check whether the used polynomial is irreducible or not. @@ -50,176 +48,46 @@ I am surprised that FiniteFieldByPolynomial allows a contruction which, clearly, has no sense and I am wondering if this has to be considered a bug to be fixed. -Fabio - - - \start Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 11:00:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Clifton Williamson -To: "list" - boundary="-1396834546-1389193119-1382896820=:14737" +To: list Subject: Re: About finite fields ----1396834546-1389193119-1382896820=:14737 - -Fabio,=0A=0AThe problem with having Axiom "automatically" perform a irreduc= -ibility check is that the check could be time consuming.=A0 Suppose you hav= -e a polynomial of high degree whose factorization takes, say, a couple of m= -inutes.=A0 With an automatic irreducibility test, AXIOM would factor the po= -lynomial every time you create the finite field, which is probably not what= - you would want.=0A=0AClifton=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Thursday, October 24, 201= -3 7:00 AM, Fabio S. wrote:=0A =0A=0AI realized that when con= -structing finite fields providing a user choosen =0Apolynomial, Axiom doesn= -'t check whether the used polynomial is =0Airreducible or not.=0A=0AFor exa= -mple:=0A=0A(10) -> factor(x^8+x^4+x^2+x+1::PF 2)=0A(10) ->=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 4=A0 =A0 3=A0 =A0 =A0 4=A0 =A0 3=A0 =A0 2=0A=A0 =A0 (10)=A0 (x= -=A0 + x=A0 + 1)(x=A0 + x=A0 + x=A0 + x + 1)=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Type: Factored(Polynomial(PrimeField(2)= -))=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Time: 0 sec=0A(11) = --> K:=3DFFP(PF 2,x^8+x^4+x^2+x+1)=0A(11) ->=0A=A0 =A0 (11)=A0 FiniteFieldEx= -tensionByPolynomial(PrimeField(2),?^8+?^4+?^2+?+1)=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Type: Domain=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Time: 0.01 (IN) = -=3D 0.01 sec=0A(12) -> size()$K=0A(12) ->=0A=A0 =A0 (12)=A0 256=0A=A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 Type: NonNegativeInteger=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Time: 0 sec=0A(13) -> a:=3Dindex(2)$K=0A(13) ->=0A=A0 =A0 = -(13)=A0 %A=0A=A0 =A0 Type: FiniteFieldExtensionByPolynomial(PrimeField(2),?= -^8+?^4+?^2+?+1)=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Time: 0.01 (OT) =3D 0.01 sec=0A(14) ->= - minimalPolynomial a=0A(14) ->=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 8=A0 =A0 4=A0 =A0 2= -=0A=A0 =A0 (14)=A0 ?=A0 + ?=A0 + ?=A0 + ? + 1=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Type: SparseUnivariatePolynomial(PrimeField(2))=0A= -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Time: 0 sec=0A(15) -> (a^4= -+a^3+1)*(a^4+a^3+a^2+a+1)=0A(15) ->=0A=A0 =A0 (15)=A0 0=0A=A0 =A0 Type: Fin= -iteFieldExtensionByPolynomial(PrimeField(2),?^8+?^4+?^2+?+1)=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 = -=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Time: 0 sec=0A=0A=0AI am surprised tha= -t FiniteFieldByPolynomial allows a contruction which, =0Aclearly, has no se= -nse and I am wondering if this has to be considered a =0Abug to be fixed.= -=0A=0AFabio=0A=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0AAxiom= --developer mailing list=0Alist=0Ahttps://lists.nongnu= -.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer ----1396834546-1389193119-1382896820=:14737 - -
Fabio,

The problem with having Axiom "automatically" p= -erform a irreducibility check is that the check could be time consuming.&nb= -sp; Suppose you have a polynomial of high degree whose factorization takes,= - say, a couple of minutes.  With an automatic irreducibility test, AXI= -OM would factor the polynomial every time you create the finite field, whic= -h is probably not what you would want.

Clifton



= -
On Th= -ursday, - October 24, 2013 7:00 AM, Fabio S. <stf@unife.it> wrote:
= -

I realized that when constructi= -ng finite fields providing a user choosen
polynomial, Axiom doesn't che= -ck whether the used polynomial is
irreducible or not.

For exampl= -e:

(10) -> factor(x^8+x^4+x^2+x+1::PF 2)
(10) ->
  = -          4    3      4&= -nbsp;   3    2
    (10)  (x  + x = -; + 1)(x  + x  + x  + x + 1)
        = -                     = -;   Type: Factored(Polynomial(PrimeField(2)))
      = -                     = -;                     &nb= -sp;             Time: 0 sec
(11) - -> K:=3DFFP(PF 2,x^8+x^4+x^2+x+1)
(11) ->
    (11)&n= -bsp; FiniteFieldExtensionByPolynomial(PrimeField(2),?^8+?^4+?^2+?+1)
&nb= -sp;                     &= -nbsp;                    = -               Type: Domain
  &n= -bsp;                     = -                     = -;   Time: 0.01 (IN) =3D 0.01 sec
(12) -> size()$K
(12) -><= -br>    (12)  256
           = -;                     &nb= -sp;               Type: NonNegativeInte= -ger
                   = -;                     -                     &nbs= -p; Time: 0 sec
(13) -> a:=3Dindex(2)$K
(13) ->
   = - (13)  %A
    Type: FiniteFieldExtensionByPolynomial(Prim= -eField(2),?^8+?^4+?^2+?+1)
            &nb= -sp;                     &= -nbsp;           Time: 0.01 (OT) =3D 0.01 sec
(= -14) -> minimalPolynomial a
(14) ->
        = -  8    4    2
    (14)  ? = - + ?  + ?  + ? + 1
            &= -nbsp;             Type: SparseUnivariatePolyn= -omial(PrimeField(2))
              &n= -bsp;                     = -                    -       Time: 0 sec
(15) -> (a^4+a^3+1)*(a^4+a^3+a^2+a+= -1)
(15) ->
    (15)  0
    Type: Finit= -eFieldExtensionByPolynomial(PrimeField(2),?^8+?^4+?^2+?+1)
   = -                     &nbs= -p;                     &n= -bsp;               Time: 0 sec

I am surprised that FiniteFieldByPolynomial allows a contruction which, <= -br>clearly, has no sense and I am wondering if this has to be considered a = -
bug to be fixed.

Fabio


______________________________= -_________________
Axiom-developer mailing list
Axiom= --developer@nongnu.org
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-develope= -r


----1396834546-1389193119-1382896820=:14737-- +The problem with having Axiom "automatically" perform a irreducibility +check is that the check could be time consuming.=A0 Suppose you have a +polynomial of high degree whose factorization takes, say, a couple of +minutes. +With an automatic irreducibility test, AXIOM would factor the +polynomial every time you create the finite field, which is probably +not what you would want. \start Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:04:10 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <1382896820.14737.YahooMailNeo@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: About finite fields - This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, - while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---8323329-908482420-1382951052=:3131 - -> The problem with having Axiom "automatically" perform a irreducibility=20 -> check is that the check could be time consuming.=A0 Suppose you have a=20 -> polynomial of high degree whose factorization takes, say, a couple of=20 -> minutes.=A0 With an automatic irreducibility test, AXIOM would factor the= -=20 -> polynomial every time you create the finite field, which is probably not= -=20 +> The problem with having Axiom "automatically" perform a irreducibility +> check is that the check could be time consuming. Suppose you have a +> polynomial of high degree whose factorization takes, say, a couple of +> minutes. With an automatic irreducibility test, AXIOM would factor the +> polynomial every time you create the finite field, which is probably not > what you would want. -I didn't consider this aspect. You are right: it can be quite annoying=20 +I didn't consider this aspect. You are right: it can be quite annoying indeed. -If there is no way out from this, maybe it could be worth to stress in the= -=20 -documentation this point and the fact tha the user _must_ take care of the= -=20 +If there is no way out from this, maybe it could be worth to stress in the +documentation this point and the fact tha the user _must_ take care of the chosen polynomial. -Fabio ---8323329-908482420-1382951052=:3131-- - - \start Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:19:39 +0100 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 +From: Ralf Hemmecke To: list - - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: About finite fields On 10/28/2013 10:04 AM, Fabio S. wrote: @@ -263,15 +131,10 @@ E := FiniteExtensionFieldByPolynomial(F, defpol) a: E := ... b: E := ... -Ralf - - \start Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:51:32 +0100 -From: matteo serventi - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 +From: Matteo Serventi To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: i can't understand this error Hi, @@ -293,17 +156,10 @@ and i get this error These commands work if the length of vl is at most 8 but i don't know why and where the problem is. -Thank you -Matteo - - \start -From: Tim Daly -To: list, matteo serventi - (axiom-developer-owner@nongnu.org) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 22:44:18 -0400 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Matteo Serventi Subject: i can't understand this error I just tried your example: @@ -349,24 +205,18 @@ join function is compiled. However, it works fine interpreted. As a result the join function is never compiled in Axiom. It looks like you managed to compile that function somehow. -Tim Daly - - \start -From: Tim Daly -To: list, borist@me.com - (axiom-developer-owner@nongnu.org) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 22:58:40 -0400 - [generic] +From: Tim Daly +To: Boris Tschirschwitz Subject: failures during build ->I have installed Axiom from Git on Linux Mint. ->It was actually quite painless until the regression tests. ->There was one test that probably took about 3 hrs and there have been quit= -e a lot of failures. ->I wasn=E2=80=99t determined to act on that so I didn=E2=80=99t take note o= -f the exact failures. ->Is there any info about what failures are expected? +>I have installed Axiom from Git on Linux Mint. It was actually quite +>painless until the regression tests. There was one test that +>probably took about 3 hrs and there have been quit= e a lot of +>failures. I wasn't determined to act on that so I didn't take note +>of the exact failures. Is there any info about what failures are +>expected? By default Axiom runs a significant portion of its test suite during build. There are tests in the suite which are known to fail and are @@ -379,9 +229,7 @@ testing by doing: make TESTSET=3Dnotests If you do run the tests this is an example of what you are likely to see: -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D +====================================================================== int/input/Comparable.regress:regression result FAILED 1 of 1 stanzas file Comparable int/input/FileName.regress:regression result FAILED 2 of 18 stanzas file @@ -413,43 +261,24 @@ tuplebug int/input/unittest1.regress:regression result FAILED 1 of 96 stanzas file unittest1 - -Tim Daly - - \start -From: Boris Tschirschwitz -Message-id: <9BB40178-EE77-4164-AB20-A6279B75FAC6@me.com> +From: Boris Tschirschwitz Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 00:32:36 +0100 To: list -MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1816\)) - recognized. Subject: Regression tests -Hi. - -I have installed Axiom from Git on Linux Mint. -It was actually quite painless until the regression tests. -There was one test that probably took about 3 hrs and there have been = -quite a lot of failures. -I wasn=92t determined to act on that so I didn=92t take note of the = -exact failures. -Is there any info about what failures are expected? - -Cheers, -Boris= - +I have installed Axiom from Git on Linux Mint. It was actually quite +painless until the regression tests. There was one test that probably +took about 3 hrs and there have been quite a lot of failures. I +wasn=92t determined to act on that so I didn=92t take note of the +exact failures. Is there any info about what failures are expected? \start Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:15:32 +0100 -From: Matteo Serventi +From: Matteo Serventi To: Tim Daly - (bad octet value). -Cc: list Subject: Re: i can't understand this error ---047d7b3a83ac99af8004e9dda88f - Thank you for your answers; that's all what i do: matteo@vaio:~$ axiom @@ -513,192 +342,10 @@ Domain I don't know how to solve this problem. do you think that it may be a problem due to ubuntu 12.04? -Thank you -Matteo - - -2013/10/29 Tim Daly - -> I just tried your example: -> -> AXIOM Computer Algebra System -> Version: Axiom (May 2012) -> Timestamp: Friday September 27, 2013 at 20:12:11 -> -> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> Issue )copyright to view copyright notices. -> Issue )summary for a summary of useful system commands. -> Issue )quit to leave AXIOM and return to shell. -> Visit http://axiom-developer.org for more information -> -> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> -> Re-reading compress.daase Re-reading interp.daase -> Re-reading operation.daase -> Re-reading category.daase -> Re-reading browse.daase -> (1) -> -> (1) -> Q:=FRAC INT; -> -> Type: -> Domain -> (2) -> vl:=[t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]; -> -> Type: -> List(OrderedVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10])) -> (3) -> RG:=DMP(vl,Q); -> -> Type: -> Domain -> (4) -> FRG:=FRAC(RG); -> -> Type: -> Domain -> (5) -> IRG:=IDEAL(Q,DirectProduct(#vl,NNI),OrderedVariableList vl,RG) -> -> (5) -> -> PolynomialIdeals(Fraction(Integer),DirectProduct(10,NonNegativeInteger),Order -> -> edVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]),DistributedMultivariatePolyn -> omial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],Fraction(Integer))) -> Type: -> Domain -> -> and it doesn't fail here. There is a join function used in Axiom which -> has the potential to exceed the lisp limit for argument lists if the -> join function is compiled. However, it works fine interpreted. As a -> result the join function is never compiled in Axiom. It looks like you -> managed to compile that function somehow. -> -> Tim Daly -> - ---047d7b3a83ac99af8004e9dda88f - -
Thank you for your answers; that's all what i do:
<= -div>
matteo@vaio:~$ axiom
GCL (GNU Common Lisp)=A0 2.6.7 CLtL1=A0=A0= -=A0 Feb=A0 1 2012 08:59:12
Source License: LGPL(gcl,gmp), GPL(unexec,bfd= -,xgcl)
-Binary License:=A0 GPL due to GPL'ed components: (XGCL READLINE UNEXEC)= -
Modifications of this banner must retain notice of a compatible license= -
Dedicated to the memory of W. Schelter

Use (help) to get some ba= -sic information on how to use GCL.
-Temporary directory for compiler files set to /tmp/
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 AXIOM Computer Algebra = -System
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0 Version: Axiom (January 2012)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0 Timestamp: Monday April 23, 2012 at 15:48:15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
=A0=A0 Issue )copyright to view copyright notices.
=A0=A0 Issue )s= -ummary for a summary of useful system commands.
=A0=A0 Issue )quit to le= -ave AXIOM and return to shell.
-=A0=A0 Visit http://axiom-developer.= -org for more information
-------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------
=A0
=A0=A0 Re-reading compress.daa= -se=A0=A0 Re-reading interp.daase
-=A0=A0 Re-reading operation.daase
=A0=A0 Re-reading category.daase
= -=A0=A0 Re-reading browse.daase
(1) ->
(1) -> Q:=3DFRAC INT (1) ->
=A0=A0 (1)=A0 Fraction(Integer)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain
-(2) -> vl:=3D[t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]
(2) ->
=A0=A0 (2= -)=A0 [t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = -Type: List(OrderedVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]))
(3) -&= -gt; RG:=3D DMP(vl,Q)
(3) ->
-=A0=A0 (3)
=A0 DistributedMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t= -8,t9,t10],Fraction(I
=A0 nteger))
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain
(4) -> FRG:=3DFRAC(RG)
(4) ->
-=A0=A0 (4)
=A0 Fraction(DistributedMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t= -5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],F
=A0 raction(Integer)))
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain
(5) -> IRG:=3DIDEAL(Q,DirectProduct(#= -vl,NNI),OrderedVariableList vl, RG)
-(5) ->
=A0
=A0=A0 >> System error:
=A0=A0=A0 Lisps argli= -st maximum surpassed

(5) ->

I don't know h= -ow to solve this problem. do you think that it may be a problem due to ubun= -tu 12.04?
-

Thank you
Matteo


2013/10/29 Tim D= -aly <Tim Daly>
-
I ju= -st tried your example:
-
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AXIOM Computer Algebra Syst= -em
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Version: Axiom (May 201= -2)
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Timestamp: Friday September 27, 2013 at 20:12:1= -1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
-=A0 =A0Issue )copyright to view copyright notices.
-=A0 =A0Issue )summary for a summary of useful system commands.
-=A0 =A0Issue )quit to leave AXIOM and return to shell.
-=A0 =A0Visit http:= -//axiom-developer.org for more information
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
-
-=A0 =A0Re-reading compress.daase =A0 Re-reading interp.daase
-=A0 =A0Re-reading operation.daase
-=A0 =A0Re-reading category.daase
-=A0 =A0Re-reading browse.daase
-(1) ->
-(1) -> Q:=3DFRAC INT;
-
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Type: Domain
-(2) -> vl:=3D[t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10];
-
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Type: List(OrderedVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t= -7,t8,t9,t10]))
-(3) -> RG:=3DDMP(vl,Q);
-
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Type: Domain
-(4) -> FRG:=3DFRAC(RG);
-
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Type: Domain
-(5) -> IRG:=3DIDEAL(Q,DirectProduct(#vl,NNI),OrderedVariableList vl,RG)<= -br> -
-=A0 =A0(5)
-=A0 PolynomialIdeals(Fraction(Integer),DirectProduct(10,NonNegativeInteger)= -,Order
-=A0 edVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]),DistributedMultivariat= -ePolyn
-=A0 omial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],Fraction(Integer)))
-=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Type: Domain
-
-and it doesn't fail here. There is a join function used in Axiom which<= -br> -has the potential to exceed the lisp limit for argument lists if the
-join function is compiled. However, it works fine interpreted. As a
-result the join function is never compiled in Axiom. It looks like you
-managed to compile that function somehow.
-
-Tim Daly
-

- ---047d7b3a83ac99af8004e9dda88f-- - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Matteo Serventi - (message from Matteo Serventi on Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:15:32 +0100) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:47:26 -0400 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Matteo Serventi Subject: Re: i can't understand this error I use Ubuntu 12.04 so I don't think that's the problem. @@ -714,19 +361,12 @@ make TESTSET=notests Let me know if this fails. -Tim - - \start Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:01:18 +0100 -From: Matteo Serventi -To: u1204 Tim Daly - (bad octet value). -Cc: list +From: Matteo Serventi +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: i can't understand this error ---20cf307c9ad2bb65b104e9e35353 - Thank you; i follow your suggest but it still doesn't work. matteo@vaio:~$ git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git @@ -861,525 +501,22 @@ Domain Lisps arglist maximum surpassed -Thank you anyway. -Matteo - - -2013/10/29 u1204 Tim Daly - -> I use Ubuntu 12.04 so I don't think that's the problem. -> -> Perhaps you can download the source from axiom-developer.org -> and do a fresh build. All you need to do is: -> -> git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git -> cd axiom -> export AXIOM=`pwd`/mnt/ubuntu -> export PATH=$AXIOM/bin:$PATH -> make TESTSET=notests -> -> Let me know if this fails. -> -> Tim -> - ---20cf307c9ad2bb65b104e9e35353 - -
Thank you; i follow your suggest but it still doesn't = -work.

matteo@vaio:~$ git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git
Cloning into 'axiom= -'...
-remote: Counting objects: 28406, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100%= - (5815/5815), done.
remote: Total 28406 (delta 22742), reused 28188 (del= -ta 22528)
Receiving objects: 100% (28406/28406), 320.57 MiB | 4.80 MiB/s= -, done.
-Resolving deltas: 100% (22742/22742), done.
matteo@vaio:~$ cd axiom
m= -atteo@vaio:~/axiom$ export AXIOM=3D'pwd'/mnt/ubuntu
matteo@vaio:= -~/axiom$ export PATH=3D$AXIOM/bin:$PATH
matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ make TESTSE= -T=3Dnotests
-13 making noweb
patching file modules.c
patching file Makefile
mak= -e[1]: [install-shell] Errore 1 (ignorato)
make[1]: [install-code] Errore= - 1 (ignorato)
texhash: /usr/local/share/texmf: directory not writable. S= -kipping...
-texhash: /var/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping...
texhash: /v= -ar/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping...
texhash: /var/lib/texm= -f: directory not writable. Skipping...
texhash: Done.
make[1]: [insta= -ll-elisp] Errore 1 (ignorato)
-0 AWK=3Dgawk BOOKS=3D/home/matteo/axiom/books BUILD=3Dfull BYE=3Dbye CC=3Dg= -cc CCF=3D-O2 -fno-strength-reduce -Wall -D_GNU_SOURCE -DLINUXplatform -I/us= -r/X11/include COMMAND=3D/usr/local/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/axiom DAASE=3D/home= -/matteo/axiom/src/share DESTDIR=3D/usr/local/axiom DOCUMENT=3D/home/matteo/= -axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/document GCLDIR=3D/home/matteo/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7= - GCLOPTS=3D--enable-vssize=3D65536*2 --enable-locbfd --disable-dynsysbfd --= -disable-statsysbfd --enable-maxpage=3D512*1024 --disable-xgcl --disable-tkc= -onfig GCLVERSION=3Dgcl-2.6.8pre7 INC=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src/include INT= -=3D/home/matteo/axiom/int LDF=3D -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/lib=A0 -lXpm LISP= -=3Dlsp LSP=3D/home/matteo/axiom/lsp MNT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt NOISE=3D-o= - /home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp/trace O=3Do OBJ=3D/home/matteo/axiom/obj PART= -=3Dcprogs PATCH=3Dpatch PLF=3DLINUXplatform RANLIB=3Dranlib RUNTYPE=3Dseria= -l SPAD=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ SPADBIN=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bi= -n SPD=3D/home/matteo/axiom SRC=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src SRCDIRS=3Dinterpdir= - sharedir algebradir etcdir clefdir docdir graphdir smandir hyperdir browse= -rdir inputdir SUBPART=3Deverything SYS=3Dubuntu TANGLE=3D/home/matteo/axiom= -/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle TAR=3Dtar TESTSET=3Dnotests TMP=3D/home/matteo= -/axiom/obj/tmp TOUCH=3Dtouch UNCOMPRESS=3Dgunzip VERSION=3DAxiom (May 2012)= - WEAVE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/noweave XLIB=3D/usr/X11R6/li= -b ZIPS=3D/home/matteo/axiom/zips
-10 copying /home/matteo/axiom/src/scripts to /home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/= -bin
p1 making a parallel system build
1 making a ubuntu system, PART= -=3Dcprogs SUBPART=3Deverything
2 Environment AWK=3Dgawk BOOKS=3D/home/ma= -tteo/axiom/books BUILD=3Dfull BYE=3Dbye CC=3Dgcc CCF=3D-O2 -fno-strength-re= -duce -Wall -D_GNU_SOURCE -DLINUXplatform -I/usr/X11/include COMMAND=3D/usr/= -local/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/axiom DAASE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src/share DESTD= -IR=3D/usr/local/axiom DOCUMENT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/document= - GCLDIR=3D/home/matteo/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7 GCLOPTS=3D--enable-vssize=3D= -65536*2 --enable-locbfd --disable-dynsysbfd --disable-statsysbfd --enable-m= -axpage=3D512*1024 --disable-xgcl --disable-tkconfig GCLVERSION=3Dgcl-2.6.8p= -re7 INC=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src/include INT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/int LDF= -=3D -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/lib=A0 -lXpm LISP=3Dlsp LSP=3D/home/matteo/axio= -m/lsp MNT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt NOISE=3D-o /home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp/tr= -ace O=3Do OBJ=3D/home/matteo/axiom/obj PART=3Dcprogs PATCH=3Dpatch PLF=3DLI= -NUXplatform RANLIB=3Dranlib RUNTYPE=3Dserial SPAD=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/= - SPADBIN=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin SPD=3D/home/matteo/axiom SRC= -=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src SRCDIRS=3Dinterpdir sharedir algebradir etcdir cl= -efdir docdir graphdir smandir hyperdir browserdir inputdir SUBPART=3Deveryt= -hing SYS=3Dubuntu TANGLE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle T= -AR=3Dtar TESTSET=3Dnotests TMP=3D/home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp TOUCH=3Dtouch U= -NCOMPRESS=3Dgunzip VERSION=3DAxiom (May 2012) WEAVE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mn= -t/ubuntu/bin/lib/noweave XLIB=3D/usr/X11R6/lib ZIPS=3D/home/matteo/axiom/zi= -ps
-/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle: 1: eval: pwd/mnt/ubuntu/bin= -/lib/markup: not found
/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle: 1= -: eval: pwd/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/nt: not found
make: *** [all] Errore 127<= -br> -matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ axiom
GCL (GNU Common Lisp)=A0 2.6.7 CLtL1=A0=A0=A0= - Feb=A0 1 2012 08:59:12
Source License: LGPL(gcl,gmp), GPL(unexec,bfd,xg= -cl)
Binary License:=A0 GPL due to GPL'ed components: (XGCL READLINE = -UNEXEC)
-Modifications of this banner must retain notice of a compatible license
= -Dedicated to the memory of W. Schelter

Use (help) to get some basic = -information on how to use GCL.
Temporary directory for compiler files se= -t to /tmp/
-=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 AXIOM= - Computer Algebra System
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Version: Axiom (January 2012)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Timestamp: Monday April 23, 2012 at 15:48:15= -
----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
-=A0=A0 Issue )copyright to view copyright notices.
=A0=A0 Issue )summary= - for a summary of useful system commands.
=A0=A0 Issue )quit to leave AX= -IOM and return to shell.
=A0=A0 Visit http://axiom-developer.org for more information
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
=A0
=A0=A0 Re-reading compress.daase=A0=A0 Re-reading interp.daase= -
=A0=A0 Re-reading operation.daase
=A0=A0 Re-reading category.daase=A0=A0 Re-reading browse.daase
-(1) ->
(1) -> Q:=3DFRAC INT
(1) ->
=A0=A0 (1)=A0 Fract= -ion(Integer)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain(2) -> vl:=3D[t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]
(2) ->
-=A0=A0 (2)=A0 [t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0 Type: List(OrderedVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]))= -
(3) -> RG:=3D DMP(vl,Q)
(3) ->
=A0=A0 (3)
=A0 Distribut= -edMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],Fraction(I
-=A0 nteger))
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain(4) -> FRG:=3DFRAC(RG)
(4) ->
=A0=A0 (4)
=A0 Fraction(Dis= -tributedMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],F
-=A0 raction(Integer)))
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type:= - Domain
(5) -> IRG:=3DIDEAL(Q,DirectProduct(#vl,NNI),OrderedVariableL= -ist vl, RG)
(5) ->
=A0
=A0=A0 >> System error:
-=A0=A0=A0 Lisps arglist maximum surpassed


Thank you a= -nyway.
Matteo

<= -br>
2013/10/29 u1204 <daly@axiom-develope= -r.org>
-
I use Ubuntu 12.04 so I don't think that= -'s the problem.
-
-Perhaps you can download the source from axiom-developer.org
-and do a fresh build. All you need to do is:
-
-git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git
-cd axiom
-export AXIOM=3D`pwd`/mnt/ubuntu
-export PATH=3D$AXIOM/bin:$PATH
-make TESTSET=3Dnotests
-
-Let me know if this fails.
-
-Tim
-

- ---20cf307c9ad2bb65b104e9e35353-- - - \start Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:29:11 +0100 -From: Matteo Serventi -To: u1204 Tim Daly - (bad octet value). -Cc: list +From: Matteo Serventi +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: i can't understand this error ---001a1135fb027ac0e004e9f9827e - I installed the following additive components and now it works. Thank you Matteo - - -2013/10/29 Matteo Serventi - -> Thank you; i follow your suggest but it still doesn't work. -> -> matteo@vaio:~$ git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git -> Cloning into 'axiom'... -> remote: Counting objects: 28406, done. -> remote: Compressing objects: 100% (5815/5815), done. -> remote: Total 28406 (delta 22742), reused 28188 (delta 22528) -> Receiving objects: 100% (28406/28406), 320.57 MiB | 4.80 MiB/s, done. -> Resolving deltas: 100% (22742/22742), done. -> matteo@vaio:~$ cd axiom -> matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ export AXIOM='pwd'/mnt/ubuntu -> matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ export PATH=$AXIOM/bin:$PATH -> matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ make TESTSET=notests -> 13 making noweb -> patching file modules.c -> patching file Makefile -> make[1]: [install-shell] Errore 1 (ignorato) -> make[1]: [install-code] Errore 1 (ignorato) -> texhash: /usr/local/share/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping... -> texhash: /var/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping... -> texhash: /var/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping... -> texhash: /var/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping... -> texhash: Done. -> make[1]: [install-elisp] Errore 1 (ignorato) -> 0 AWK=gawk BOOKS=/home/matteo/axiom/books BUILD=full BYE=bye CC=gcc -> CCF=-O2 -fno-strength-reduce -Wall -D_GNU_SOURCE -DLINUXplatform -> -I/usr/X11/include COMMAND=/usr/local/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/axiom -> DAASE=/home/matteo/axiom/src/share DESTDIR=/usr/local/axiom -> DOCUMENT=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/document -> GCLDIR=/home/matteo/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7 GCLOPTS=--enable-vssize=65536*2 -> --enable-locbfd --disable-dynsysbfd --disable-statsysbfd -> --enable-maxpage=512*1024 --disable-xgcl --disable-tkconfig -> GCLVERSION=gcl-2.6.8pre7 INC=/home/matteo/axiom/src/include -> INT=/home/matteo/axiom/int LDF= -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/lib -lXpm LISP=lsp -> LSP=/home/matteo/axiom/lsp MNT=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt NOISE=-o -> /home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp/trace O=o OBJ=/home/matteo/axiom/obj PART=cprogs -> PATCH=patch PLF=LINUXplatform RANLIB=ranlib RUNTYPE=serial -> SPAD=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ SPADBIN=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin -> SPD=/home/matteo/axiom SRC=/home/matteo/axiom/src SRCDIRS=interpdir -> sharedir algebradir etcdir clefdir docdir graphdir smandir hyperdir -> browserdir inputdir SUBPART=everything SYS=ubuntu -> TANGLE=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle TAR=tar -> TESTSET=notests TMP=/home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp TOUCH=touch -> UNCOMPRESS=gunzip VERSION=Axiom (May 2012) -> WEAVE=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/noweave XLIB=/usr/X11R6/lib -> ZIPS=/home/matteo/axiom/zips -> 10 copying /home/matteo/axiom/src/scripts to -> /home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin -> p1 making a parallel system build -> 1 making a ubuntu system, PART=cprogs SUBPART=everything -> 2 Environment AWK=gawk BOOKS=/home/matteo/axiom/books BUILD=full BYE=bye -> CC=gcc CCF=-O2 -fno-strength-reduce -Wall -D_GNU_SOURCE -DLINUXplatform -> -I/usr/X11/include COMMAND=/usr/local/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/axiom -> DAASE=/home/matteo/axiom/src/share DESTDIR=/usr/local/axiom -> DOCUMENT=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/document -> GCLDIR=/home/matteo/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7 GCLOPTS=--enable-vssize=65536*2 -> --enable-locbfd --disable-dynsysbfd --disable-statsysbfd -> --enable-maxpage=512*1024 --disable-xgcl --disable-tkconfig -> GCLVERSION=gcl-2.6.8pre7 INC=/home/matteo/axiom/src/include -> INT=/home/matteo/axiom/int LDF= -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/lib -lXpm LISP=lsp -> LSP=/home/matteo/axiom/lsp MNT=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt NOISE=-o -> /home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp/trace O=o OBJ=/home/matteo/axiom/obj PART=cprogs -> PATCH=patch PLF=LINUXplatform RANLIB=ranlib RUNTYPE=serial -> SPAD=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ SPADBIN=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin -> SPD=/home/matteo/axiom SRC=/home/matteo/axiom/src SRCDIRS=interpdir -> sharedir algebradir etcdir clefdir docdir graphdir smandir hyperdir -> browserdir inputdir SUBPART=everything SYS=ubuntu -> TANGLE=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle TAR=tar -> TESTSET=notests TMP=/home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp TOUCH=touch -> UNCOMPRESS=gunzip VERSION=Axiom (May 2012) -> WEAVE=/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/noweave XLIB=/usr/X11R6/lib -> ZIPS=/home/matteo/axiom/zips -> /home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle: 1: eval: -> pwd/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/markup: not found -> /home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle: 1: eval: -> pwd/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/nt: not found -> make: *** [all] Errore 127 -> matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ axiom -> -> GCL (GNU Common Lisp) 2.6.7 CLtL1 Feb 1 2012 08:59:12 -> Source License: LGPL(gcl,gmp), GPL(unexec,bfd,xgcl) -> Binary License: GPL due to GPL'ed components: (XGCL READLINE UNEXEC) -> Modifications of this banner must retain notice of a compatible license -> Dedicated to the memory of W. Schelter -> -> Use (help) to get some basic information on how to use GCL. -> Temporary directory for compiler files set to /tmp/ -> AXIOM Computer Algebra System -> Version: Axiom (January 2012) -> Timestamp: Monday April 23, 2012 at 15:48:15 -> -> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> Issue )copyright to view copyright notices. -> Issue )summary for a summary of useful system commands. -> Issue )quit to leave AXIOM and return to shell. -> Visit http://axiom-developer.org for more information -> -> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> -> Re-reading compress.daase Re-reading interp.daase -> Re-reading operation.daase -> Re-reading category.daase -> Re-reading browse.daase -> (1) -> -> (1) -> Q:=FRAC INT -> (1) -> -> (1) Fraction(Integer) -> Type: -> Domain -> (2) -> vl:=[t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10] -> (2) -> -> (2) [t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10] -> Type: -> List(OrderedVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10])) -> (3) -> RG:= DMP(vl,Q) -> (3) -> -> (3) -> -> DistributedMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],Fraction(I -> nteger)) -> Type: -> Domain -> (4) -> FRG:=FRAC(RG) -> (4) -> -> (4) -> -> Fraction(DistributedMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],F -> raction(Integer))) -> Type: -> Domain -> (5) -> IRG:=IDEAL(Q,DirectProduct(#vl,NNI),OrderedVariableList vl, RG) -> (5) -> -> -> >> System error: -> Lisps arglist maximum surpassed -> -> -> Thank you anyway. -> Matteo -> -> -> 2013/10/29 u1204 Tim Daly -> ->> I use Ubuntu 12.04 so I don't think that's the problem. ->> ->> Perhaps you can download the source from axiom-developer.org ->> and do a fresh build. All you need to do is: ->> ->> git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git ->> cd axiom ->> export AXIOM=`pwd`/mnt/ubuntu ->> export PATH=$AXIOM/bin:$PATH ->> make TESTSET=notests ->> ->> Let me know if this fails. ->> ->> Tim ->> -> -> - ---001a1135fb027ac0e004e9f9827e - -
I installed the following additive components and now= - it works.

Thank you

Matteo
<= -br>


2013/10/29 Matteo Serventi <serventi.matteo@gmail.com>
-
Thank you; i follow your su= -ggest but it still doesn't work.

matteo@vaio:~$ git clone g= -it://github.= -com/daly/axiom.git
-Cloning into 'axiom'...
-remote: Counting objects: 28406, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100%= - (5815/5815), done.
remote: Total 28406 (delta 22742), reused 28188 (del= -ta 22528)
Receiving objects: 100% (28406/28406), 320.57 MiB | 4.80 MiB/s= -, done.
- -Resolving deltas: 100% (22742/22742), done.
matteo@vaio:~$ cd axiom
m= -atteo@vaio:~/axiom$ export AXIOM=3D'pwd'/mnt/ubuntu
matteo@vaio:= -~/axiom$ export PATH=3D$AXIOM/bin:$PATH
matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ make TESTSE= -T=3Dnotests
- -13 making noweb
patching file modules.c
patching file Makefile
mak= -e[1]: [install-shell] Errore 1 (ignorato)
make[1]: [install-code] Errore= - 1 (ignorato)
texhash: /usr/local/share/texmf: directory not writable. S= -kipping...
- -texhash: /var/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping...
texhash: /v= -ar/lib/texmf: directory not writable. Skipping...
texhash: /var/lib/texm= -f: directory not writable. Skipping...
texhash: Done.
make[1]: [insta= -ll-elisp] Errore 1 (ignorato)
- -0 AWK=3Dgawk BOOKS=3D/home/matteo/axiom/books BUILD=3Dfull BYE=3Dbye CC=3Dg= -cc CCF=3D-O2 -fno-strength-reduce -Wall -D_GNU_SOURCE -DLINUXplatform -I/us= -r/X11/include COMMAND=3D/usr/local/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/axiom DAASE=3D/home= -/matteo/axiom/src/share DESTDIR=3D/usr/local/axiom DOCUMENT=3D/home/matteo/= -axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/document GCLDIR=3D/home/matteo/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7= - GCLOPTS=3D--enable-vssize=3D65536*2 --enable-locbfd --disable-dynsysbfd --= -disable-statsysbfd --enable-maxpage=3D512*1024 --disable-xgcl --disable-tkc= -onfig GCLVERSION=3Dgcl-2.6.8pre7 INC=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src/include INT= -=3D/home/matteo/axiom/int LDF=3D -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/lib=A0 -lXpm LISP= -=3Dlsp LSP=3D/home/matteo/axiom/lsp MNT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt NOISE=3D-o= - /home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp/trace O=3Do OBJ=3D/home/matteo/axiom/obj PART= -=3Dcprogs PATCH=3Dpatch PLF=3DLINUXplatform RANLIB=3Dranlib RUNTYPE=3Dseria= -l SPAD=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ SPADBIN=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bi= -n SPD=3D/home/matteo/axiom SRC=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src SRCDIRS=3Dinterpdir= - sharedir algebradir etcdir clefdir docdir graphdir smandir hyperdir browse= -rdir inputdir SUBPART=3Deverything SYS=3Dubuntu TANGLE=3D/home/matteo/axiom= -/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle TAR=3Dtar TESTSET=3Dnotests TMP=3D/home/matteo= -/axiom/obj/tmp TOUCH=3Dtouch UNCOMPRESS=3Dgunzip VERSION=3DAxiom (May 2012)= - WEAVE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/noweave XLIB=3D/usr/X11R6/li= -b ZIPS=3D/home/matteo/axiom/zips
- -10 copying /home/matteo/axiom/src/scripts to /home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/= -bin
p1 making a parallel system build
1 making a ubuntu system, PART= -=3Dcprogs SUBPART=3Deverything
2 Environment AWK=3Dgawk BOOKS=3D/home/ma= -tteo/axiom/books BUILD=3Dfull BYE=3Dbye CC=3Dgcc CCF=3D-O2 -fno-strength-re= -duce -Wall -D_GNU_SOURCE -DLINUXplatform -I/usr/X11/include COMMAND=3D/usr/= -local/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/axiom DAASE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src/share DESTD= -IR=3D/usr/local/axiom DOCUMENT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/document= - GCLDIR=3D/home/matteo/axiom/lsp/gcl-2.6.8pre7 GCLOPTS=3D--enable-vssize=3D= -65536*2 --enable-locbfd --disable-dynsysbfd --disable-statsysbfd --enable-m= -axpage=3D512*1024 --disable-xgcl --disable-tkconfig GCLVERSION=3Dgcl-2.6.8p= -re7 INC=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src/include INT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/int LDF= -=3D -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/lib=A0 -lXpm LISP=3Dlsp LSP=3D/home/matteo/axio= -m/lsp MNT=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt NOISE=3D-o /home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp/tr= -ace O=3Do OBJ=3D/home/matteo/axiom/obj PART=3Dcprogs PATCH=3Dpatch PLF=3DLI= -NUXplatform RANLIB=3Dranlib RUNTYPE=3Dserial SPAD=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/= - SPADBIN=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin SPD=3D/home/matteo/axiom SRC= -=3D/home/matteo/axiom/src SRCDIRS=3Dinterpdir sharedir algebradir etcdir cl= -efdir docdir graphdir smandir hyperdir browserdir inputdir SUBPART=3Deveryt= -hing SYS=3Dubuntu TANGLE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle T= -AR=3Dtar TESTSET=3Dnotests TMP=3D/home/matteo/axiom/obj/tmp TOUCH=3Dtouch U= -NCOMPRESS=3Dgunzip VERSION=3DAxiom (May 2012) WEAVE=3D/home/matteo/axiom/mn= -t/ubuntu/bin/lib/noweave XLIB=3D/usr/X11R6/lib ZIPS=3D/home/matteo/axiom/zi= -ps
- -/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle: 1: eval: pwd/mnt/ubuntu/bin= -/lib/markup: not found
/home/matteo/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/notangle: 1= -: eval: pwd/mnt/ubuntu/bin/lib/nt: not found
make: *** [all] Errore 127<= -br> - -matteo@vaio:~/axiom$ axiom

GCL (GNU Common Lisp)= -=A0 2.6.7 CLtL1=A0=A0=A0 Feb=A0 1 2012 08:59:12
Source License: LGPL(gcl= -,gmp), GPL(unexec,bfd,xgcl)
Binary License:=A0 GPL due to GPL'ed com= -ponents: (XGCL READLINE UNEXEC)
- -Modifications of this banner must retain notice of a compatible license
= -Dedicated to the memory of W. Schelter

Use (help) to get some basic = -information on how to use GCL.
Temporary directory for compiler files se= -t to /tmp/
- -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 AXIOM= - Computer Algebra System
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Version: Axiom (January 2012)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Timestamp: Monday April 23, 2012 at 15:48:15= -
----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
- -=A0=A0 Issue )copyright to view copyright notices.
=A0=A0 Issue )summary= - for a summary of useful system commands.
=A0=A0 Issue )quit to leave AX= -IOM and return to shell.
=A0=A0 Visit http://axiom-developer.org for more information<= -br> - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
=A0
=A0=A0 Re-reading compress.daase=A0=A0 Re-reading interp.daase= -
=A0=A0 Re-reading operation.daase
=A0=A0 Re-reading category.daase=A0=A0 Re-reading browse.daase
- -(1) ->
(1) -> Q:=3DFRAC INT
(1) ->
=A0=A0 (1)=A0 Fract= -ion(Integer)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain(2) -> vl:=3D[t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]
(2) ->
- -=A0=A0 (2)=A0 [t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0 Type: List(OrderedVariableList([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10]))= -
(3) -> RG:=3D DMP(vl,Q)
(3) ->
=A0=A0 (3)
=A0 Distribut= -edMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],Fraction(I
- -=A0 nteger))
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type: Domain(4) -> FRG:=3DFRAC(RG)
(4) ->
=A0=A0 (4)
=A0 Fraction(Dis= -tributedMultivariatePolynomial([t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6,t7,t8,t9,t10],F
- -=A0 raction(Integer)))
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= -=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type:= - Domain
(5) -> IRG:=3DIDEAL(Q,DirectProduct(#vl,NNI),OrderedVariableL= -ist vl, RG)
(5) ->
=A0
=A0=A0 >> System error:
- -=A0=A0=A0 Lisps arglist maximum surpassed


Thank you anyway.
Matteo
-


= -
2013/10/29 u1204 <daly@axiom-developer= -.org>
- -
I use Ubuntu 12.04 so I don't think that= -'s the problem.
-
-Perhaps you can download the source from axiom-developer.org
-and do a fresh build. All you need to do is:
-
-git clone git://github.com/daly/axiom.git
-cd axiom
-export AXIOM=3D`pwd`/mnt/ubuntu
-export PATH=3D$AXIOM/bin:$PATH
-make TESTSET=3Dnotests
-
-Let me know if this fails.
-
-Tim
-

-

- ---001a1135fb027ac0e004e9f9827e-- - - \start -From: Camm Maguire -To: u1204 Tim Daly Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 11:35:01 -0400 - (Tim Daly's message of "Tue, - 29 Oct 2013 11:47:26 -0400") -Message-id: <87habxtpwa.fsf@maguirefamily.org> -MIME-version: 1.0 - recognized. -Cc: list +From: Camm Maguire +To: Tim Daly Subject: Windows Greetings! Are there instructions to build just the lisp/axiom stuff, @@ -1394,21 +531,11 @@ won't stress test the windows binary compiler/loader in gcl. I've installed texlive, and get to bsdsignal.c before crashing (which it of course must do). -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire Camm Maguire -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:24 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." -To: list - (bad octet value). +From: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Editing command lines in terminal - If I recall a previous command line via the up arrow and then I edit it, the line will usually be messed up. @@ -1424,4 +551,3 @@ Fabio - diff --git a/book/2013-11.txt b/book/2013-11.txt index 7d0a11f..9dce49b 100644 --- a/book/2013-11.txt +++ b/book/2013-11.txt @@ -1,10 +1,7 @@ \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Camm Maguire - Thu, 31 Oct 2013 11:35:01 -0400) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 16:00:05 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Camm Maguire Subject: Re: Windows >Greetings! Are there instructions to build just the lisp/axiom stuff, @@ -34,22 +31,12 @@ The src/interp/Makefile.pamphlet will be put into src/interp/Makefile and that contains the steps necessary to make "interpsys" which gets renamed to "AXIOMsys". -Feel free to ask questions. - -Tim - - - - - \start Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 18:32:33 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Vim syntax file - Some time ago I asked on the list if there was a syntax file to have vim input files highlighted in vim: the answer was no. After some time, I built one myself. @@ -64,104 +51,52 @@ http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=4765 I also added highlighting for pamphlet files so you can have both latex and axiom code properly highlighted. -Fabio - - \start -From: Grigory Sarnitsky Grigory Sarnitskiy Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 09:59:46 +0400 +From: Grigory Sarnitsky To: list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file -Umm, maybe I don=92t get what you did but there was a vim syntax = +Umm, maybe I don't get what you did but there was a vim syntax highlighting file http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomInVim -Though since the wiki was down for a considerable time it was = -unavailabe. - -Grigory. - - -On 09 Nov 2013, at 21:32, Fabio S. wrote: - ->=20 -> Some time ago I asked on the list if there was a syntax file to have = -vim input files highlighted in vim: the answer was no. -> After some time, I built one myself. ->=20 -> Unlikely, I forgot to submit it so to share it with other interested = -people (if any...!) ->=20 -> I did it today: interested people can find it at ->=20 -> http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=3D4765 ->=20 -> I also added highlighting for pamphlet files so you can have both = -latex and axiom code properly highlighted. ->=20 -> Fabio ->=20 -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - - +Though since the wiki was down for a considerable time it was unavailabe. \start Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:42:02 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file - This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, - while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---8323329-185009682-1384087325=:2962 +> Umm, maybe I don't get what you did but there was a vim syntax + highlighting file http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomInVim -> Umm, maybe I don=92t get what you did but there was a vim syntax highligh= -ting file http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomInVim -> -I didn't know of this file: after I asked on the list and I made the first= -=20 -version of my file in 2004, I didn't look around anymore for a syntax=20 -file. Last month I was writing a small input file in pamphlet format and I= -=20 -was upset to not having syntax highlight for axiom code in the "chunk"=20 -environment, so I managed to have it. After having done this, I realized=20 -that I never submited it to the vim site: I checked there and I found that= -=20 -there still was no axiom syntax file, so I (uncorrectly...) assumed there= -=20 +I didn't know of this file: after I asked on the list and I made the first +version of my file in 2004, I didn't look around anymore for a syntax +file. Last month I was writing a small input file in pamphlet format and I +was upset to not having syntax highlight for axiom code in the "chunk" +environment, so I managed to have it. After having done this, I realized +that I never submited it to the vim site: I checked there and I found that +there still was no axiom syntax file, so I (uncorrectly...) assumed there was none available and then I decide to submit mine. That's all. -In any case, there is no problem in having two different syntax files:=20 -just choose the one which you prefer. I myself will have a look at the=20 +In any case, there is no problem in having two different syntax files: +just choose the one which you prefer. I myself will have a look at the file you indicated to see if I can get some idea to improve mine. -Regards - -Fabio ---8323329-185009682-1384087325=:2962-- - - \start Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 14:44:58 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 -To: list, fricas-devel < > - - (bad octet value). +To: list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file On 11/10/2013 01:42 PM, Fabio S. wrote: >>> http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=4765 ->> Umm, maybe I don’t get what you did but there was a vim syntax +>> Umm, maybe I don't get what you did but there was a vim syntax >> highlighting file http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomInVim >> > @@ -185,36 +120,17 @@ the public. Just my 2 cents. -Ralf - PS: Don't get me wrong. I appreciate if people contribute to the Axiom Family in any way. > just choose the one which you prefer. I myself will have a look at the > file you indicated to see if I can get some idea to improve mine. > -> Regards -> -> Fabio -> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer -> - - \start Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:31:51 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). -Cc: list, fricas-devel < > Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> I didn't know of this file: after I asked on the list and I made the @@ -260,14 +176,10 @@ PS: I saw that you put a link to the vim page at the axiom-wiki page: I made the same at the vim page, where also I uploaded a cleaned up version of the file. - \start Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:25:03 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 -To: list, fricas-devel < > - - (bad octet value). +To: list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file On 11/11/2013 12:31 PM, Fabio S. wrote: @@ -280,21 +192,10 @@ If I were you, I would simply write a little script that a user could run on his/her machine and generated the respective lists of categories/domains/... in a form appropriate for the vim-mode. -Ralf - - - - \start Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:53:42 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> I have only one remark: I used axiom to generate @@ -340,21 +241,12 @@ them. And what about step 1? How can I start axiom with a input file in a shell script? -Fabio - - \start Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:28:58 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 -To: list, fricas-devel < > - - (bad octet value). +To: list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file -This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------020709030505040805030505 - What about the attached script? It's developed with FriCAS, but would that work with AXIOM? @@ -417,57 +309,11 @@ On 11/11/2013 05:53 PM, Fabio S. wrote: > them. > And what about step 1? How can I start axiom with a input file in a shell > script? -> -> Fabio -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - - ---------------020709030505040805030505 - name="keywords.sh" - filename="keywords.sh" - -IyEvYmluL3NoCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMKIyMKIyMgQ29weXJpZ2h0IChDKSAyMDEzICBSYWxm -IEhlbW1lY2tlIDxyYWxmQGhlbW1lY2tlLm9yZz4KIyMKIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIwojIyBUaGlz -IHByb2dyYW0gaXMgZnJlZSBzb2Z0d2FyZTogeW91IGNhbiByZWRpc3RyaWJ1dGUgaXQgYW5k -L29yIG1vZGlmeQojIyBpdCB1bmRlciB0aGUgdGVybXMgb2YgdGhlIEdOVSBHZW5lcmFsIFB1 -YmxpYyBMaWNlbnNlIGFzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBieQojIyB0aGUgRnJlZSBTb2Z0d2FyZSBGb3Vu -ZGF0aW9uLCBlaXRoZXIgdmVyc2lvbiAzIG9mIHRoZSBMaWNlbnNlLCBvcgojIyAoYXQgeW91 -ciBvcHRpb24pIGFueSBsYXRlciB2ZXJzaW9uLgojIwojIyBUaGlzIHByb2dyYW0gaXMgZGlz -dHJpYnV0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIGhvcGUgdGhhdCBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCwKIyMgYnV0IFdJ -VEhPVVQgQU5ZIFdBUlJBTlRZOyB3aXRob3V0IGV2ZW4gdGhlIGltcGxpZWQgd2FycmFudHkg -b2YKIyMgTUVSQ0hBTlRBQklMSVRZIG9yIEZJVE5FU1MgRk9SIEEgUEFSVElDVUxBUiBQVVJQ -T1NFLiAgU2VlIHRoZQojIyBHTlUgR2VuZXJhbCBQdWJsaWMgTGljZW5zZSBmb3IgbW9yZSBk -ZXRhaWxzLgojIwojIyBZb3Ugc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgYSBjb3B5IG9mIHRoZSBH -TlUgR2VuZXJhbCBQdWJsaWMgTGljZW5zZQojIyBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIHRoaXMgcHJvZ3JhbS4g -IElmIG5vdCwgc2VlIDxodHRwOi8vd3d3LmdudS5vcmcvbGljZW5zZXMvPi4KIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIwojIyBUaGlzIHNjcmlwdCBpcyBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byB0YWtlIHRoZSBuYW1lIG9mIHRo -ZSAocGFuLSlheGlvbQojIyBleGVjdXRhYmxlIGFzIGFuIGFyZ3VtZW50IGFuZCB3cml0ZXMg -dGhlIGZpbGVzIGNhdGVnb3JpZXMudmltLAojIyBkb21haW5zLnZpbSwgcGFja2FnZXMudmlt -LCBvcGVyYXRpb25zLnZpbSBpbiBhIGZvcm1hdCBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZQojIyBmb3IgdmltLgoj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjCgpFWEU9IiQxIC1ub3NtYW4iCmtleXdvcmRzICgpIHsKICAgIGVjaG8g -Iil3aGF0ICQxIiB8ICRFWEUgXAogICAgICAgIHwgc2VkIC1uICIxLC9eJDIvZDsvXigvZDsv -XiAgL2Q7cCIgXAogICAgICAgIHwgd2hpbGUgcmVhZCBsOyBkbyBmb3IgdyBpbiAkbDsgZG8g -XAogICAgICAgICAgICBlY2hvICJzeW4gbWF0Y2ggYXgkMSBcIlxcPCR3XFw+XCIiOyBcCiAg -ICAgICAgICBkb25lOyBkb25lIFwKICAgICAgICA+ICQxLnZpbQp9CgprZXl3b3JkcyBkb21h -aW5zICAgICcoJwprZXl3b3JkcyBjYXRlZ29yaWVzICcoJwprZXl3b3JkcyBwYWNrYWdlcyAg -ICcoJwprZXl3b3JkcyBvcGVyYXRpb25zICdPcGVyYXRpb25zIHdob3NlJwo= ---------------020709030505040805030505-- - \start -From: Tim Daly -To: "Fabio S." Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 01:01:17 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file Fabio, @@ -518,25 +364,10 @@ test suite. When you are happy with your vim file send me a copy and I will add it to the zips directory in the distribution. -Tim Daly - - - - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:29:44 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). -Cc: list, fricas-devel < > Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > What about the attached script? @@ -560,7 +391,6 @@ Required user intervention is very limited and straightforward and I think that trying to eliminate it completely can be not worth of and, also, not completely deterministic, given the "garbage" in output spool files. - > The operations.vim doesn't quite match. There are some places where in > your original file you have something like \M~=\m. Since I don't use > vim, I don't understand the differences. @@ -569,20 +399,12 @@ The \M stuff (which today I slightly modified) is somewhat necessary due to vim handling of regexps, to have a precise control of them regardless of users' settings. -Regards - -Fabio - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:42:25 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file - Tim, thanks for your comments and hints. > If you want the names of all of the categories, domains, and packages @@ -638,18 +460,10 @@ which gives me some reason/hint to modify it, I don't think I will touch it any more: if you don't see any change for some weeks, you can download it and add it, if you want. -Regards - -Fabio - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:46:59 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 To: list - - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > Ralph @@ -708,24 +522,10 @@ Semiautomatic stuff is pretty useless. Could that be added to keywords.sh? Since I don't know vim, I wouldn't know whether the result is right if I corrected keywords.sh myself. -Ralf - - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:21:44 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> Ralph @@ -801,16 +601,10 @@ This doesn't happen in com.txt but it does in op.txt The other three files contain only keywords character, so we don't need regexp (ie, syn match), which is better. -Fabio - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:54:32 +0100 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 +From: Ralf Hemmecke To: list - - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > Unknown option: -nosman @@ -827,7 +621,7 @@ Ralf \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:55:59 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list cc: list (bad octet value). @@ -871,26 +665,10 @@ then returns the whole input file. What am I missing? - -Fabio - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:39 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - - <52824F38.9040106@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> Unknown option: -nosman @@ -913,16 +691,10 @@ produces everything. I have to combine this with the sed lines I posted before and then I think it will work. -Thanks a lot. - -Fabio - - \start -From: Tim Daly -To: list, stf@unife.it Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:38:28 -0500 - [generic] +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file Fabio, @@ -956,9 +728,6 @@ axiom -nox The ')tangle' command line is implemented by the tangle function (see books/tangle.lisp) - - - For more complex files such as books/bookvol10.3.pamphlet you can extract particular named chunks. For instance, if you want to extract @@ -977,9 +746,6 @@ In general, the arguments are There is no reason why the )tangle command isn't more complex except that I haven't had a use case for it yet. - - - Also, the tangle function in books/tangle.lisp is not specific to Axiom. It can be used in any literate programming context. @@ -987,36 +753,12 @@ I'd encourage you to consider writing your vim file as a literate program since you're the one who understands it best. Other people will have to reverse engineer it to understand it. -Tim - - - - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:08:49 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - - <52824F38.9040106@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file - This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, - while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. - ---8323329-1106215213-1384294131=:2999 - - Ralf, I got it work. Please check if it works also for you. @@ -1026,94 +768,10 @@ in these cases, has a different layout. Moreover, with the while+for cycle there was some little trouble, so I changed it to "pure sed" (and one per line: a little bit more verbose but more clear) -Fabio ---8323329-1106215213-1384294131=:2999 - -IyEvYmluL3NoCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMKIyMKIyMgQ29weXJp -Z2h0IChDKSAyMDEzICBSYWxmIEhlbW1lY2tlIDxyYWxmQGhlbW1lY2tlLm9y -Zz4KIyMKIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIwojIyBUaGlzIHByb2dyYW0g -aXMgZnJlZSBzb2Z0d2FyZTogeW91IGNhbiByZWRpc3RyaWJ1dGUgaXQgYW5k -L29yIG1vZGlmeQojIyBpdCB1bmRlciB0aGUgdGVybXMgb2YgdGhlIEdOVSBH -ZW5lcmFsIFB1YmxpYyBMaWNlbnNlIGFzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBieQojIyB0aGUg -RnJlZSBTb2Z0d2FyZSBGb3VuZGF0aW9uLCBlaXRoZXIgdmVyc2lvbiAzIG9m -IHRoZSBMaWNlbnNlLCBvcgojIyAoYXQgeW91ciBvcHRpb24pIGFueSBsYXRl -ciB2ZXJzaW9uLgojIwojIyBUaGlzIHByb2dyYW0gaXMgZGlzdHJpYnV0ZWQg -aW4gdGhlIGhvcGUgdGhhdCBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCwKIyMgYnV0IFdJ -VEhPVVQgQU5ZIFdBUlJBTlRZOyB3aXRob3V0IGV2ZW4gdGhlIGltcGxpZWQg -d2FycmFudHkgb2YKIyMgTUVSQ0hBTlRBQklMSVRZIG9yIEZJVE5FU1MgRk9S -IEEgUEFSVElDVUxBUiBQVVJQT1NFLiAgU2VlIHRoZQojIyBHTlUgR2VuZXJh -bCBQdWJsaWMgTGljZW5zZSBmb3IgbW9yZSBkZXRhaWxzLgojIwojIyBZb3Ug -c2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgYSBjb3B5IG9mIHRoZSBHTlUgR2VuZXJh -bCBQdWJsaWMgTGljZW5zZQojIyBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIHRoaXMgcHJvZ3JhbS4g -IElmIG5vdCwgc2VlIDxodHRwOi8vd3d3LmdudS5vcmcvbGljZW5zZXMvPi4K -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIwojIyBUaGlzIHNjcmlwdCBpcyBzdXBw -b3NlZCB0byB0YWtlIHRoZSBuYW1lIG9mIHRoZSAocGFuLSlheGlvbQojIyBl -eGVjdXRhYmxlIGFzIGFuIGFyZ3VtZW50IGFuZCB3cml0ZXMgdGhlIGZpbGVz -IGNhdGVnb3JpZXMudmltLAojIyBkb21haW5zLnZpbSwgcGFja2FnZXMudmlt -LCBvcGVyYXRpb25zLnZpbSBpbiBhIGZvcm1hdCBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZQojIyBm -b3IgdmltLgojIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjCgojIExldCdzIG1ha2Ug -YSBndWVzcwpBWElPTT1gZmluZCAvdXNyL2xpYiAgLXR5cGUgZCAtaW5hbWUg -ImF4aW9tLSoiYAojIElmIHlvdSBnZXQgZXJyb3IsIHNldCBtYW51YWxseSB0 -aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHZhcmlhYmxlCiNleHBvcnQgQVhJT009Ii91c3IvbGli -L2F4aW9tLTIwMTIwMzAxIgoKIyBTZXQgdGhlIGF4aW9tIGNvbW1hbmQKaWYg -WyAiJDEiID0gImF4aW9tIiBdOwp0aGVuIAoJaWYgWyAhIC1kICRBWElPTSBd -OwoJdGhlbgoJCWVjaG8gIlBsZWFzZSBlZGl0IHRoZSBzY3JpcHQgYW5kIGlu -c2VydCB0aGUgY29ycmVjdCB2YWx1ZSIKCQllY2hvICJmb3IgdGhlIEF4aW9t -IGRpcmVjdG9yeSBpbiB0aGUgXCRBWElPTSB2YXJpYWJsZS4iCgkJZXhpdAoJ -ZmkKCUVYRT0iJEFYSU9NL2Jpbi9BWElPTXN5cyAtbm9zbWFuIgplbHNlIAoJ -RVhFPSIkMSAtbm9zbWFuIgpmaQoKIyBGaXJzdCBnZW5lcmF0ZSBzeW50YXgg -Zm9yIGtleXdvcmRzCiMgRXZlcnkgc2VkIGxpbmUgZG9lcyB0aGUgZm9sbG93 -aW5nCgojIFJlbW92ZSBnYXJiYWdlIGF0IHRoZSB0b3AKIyBSZW1vdmUgZ2Fy -YmFnZSBhdCB0aGUgYm90dG9tCiMgU3F1ZWV6ZSBzcGFjZXMKIyBTcGxpdCBv -dXRwdXQgb25lIHdvcmQgcGVyIGxpbmUKIyBSZW1vdmUgZW1wdHkgbGluZXMK -IyBBZGQgdGhlIHZpbSBzeW50YXggY29tbWFuZHMKa2V5d29yZHMgKCkgewog -ICAgZWNobyAiKXdoYXQgJDEiIHwgJEVYRSBcCiAgICAgICAgfCBzZWQgIjEs -L14oL2QiIFwKCXwgc2VkICIvXigvZCIgXAoJfCBzZWQgInMvXCggXCtcKS8g -L2ciIFwKCXwgc2VkICJzLyAvXG4vZyIgXAoJfCBzZWQgIi9eJC9kIiBcCgl8 -IHNlZCAicy9cKF4uKiRcKS9zeW4ga2V5d29yZCBheCQyIFwxLyIgXAoJPiAk -MS52aW0KfQoKa2V5d29yZHMgY2F0ZWdvcmllcyAJQ2F0ZWdvcnkgCmtleXdv -cmRzIGRvbWFpbnMgCURvbWFpbiAgICAKa2V5d29yZHMgcGFja2FnZXMgCVBh -Y2thZ2UgICAKCiMgVGhlbiBnZW5lcmF0ZSBzeW50YXggZm9yIHJlZ2V4cHMK -CiMgRmlyc3Qgc3lzdGVtIGNvbW1hbmRzCiMgRXZlcnkgc2VkIGxpbmUgZG9l -cyB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nCgojIFJlbW92ZSBnYXJiYWdlIGF0IHRoZSB0b3AK -IyBSZW1vdmUgZ2FyYmFnZSBhdCB0aGUgYm90dG9tCiMgU3F1ZWV6ZSBzcGFj -ZXMKIyBTcGxpdCBvdXRwdXQgb25lIHdvcmQgcGVyIGxpbmUKIyBSZW1vdmUg -ZW1wdHkgbGluZXMKIyBBZGQgdGhlIHZpbSBzeW50YXggY29tbWFuZHMKZWNo -byAiKXdoYXQgY29tbSIgfCAkRVhFIFwKCXwgc2VkICIxLC9eKC9kIiBcCgl8 -IHNlZCAiL14gXCtGb3IgbW9yZS8sXCRkIiBcCgl8IHNlZCAicy9cKCBcK1wp -LyAvZyIgXAoJfCBzZWQgInMvIC9cbi9nIiBcCgl8IHNlZCAiL14kL2QiIFwK -CXwgc2VkICJzL1woXi4qJFwpL3N5biBtYXRjaCBheENvbW1hbmQgXCJcXFxc -VilcMVxcXFxtXCIvIiBcCgk+IGNvbW1hbmRzLnZpbQoKIyBOb3cgYXhpb20g -b3BlcmF0aW9ucwojIEV2ZXJ5IHNlZCBsaW5lIGRvZXMgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2lu -ZwoKIyBSZW1vdmUgZ2FyYmFnZSBhdCB0aGUgdG9wCiMgUmVtb3ZlIGdhcmJh -Z2UgYXQgdGhlIGJvdHRvbQojIFNxdWVlemUgc3BhY2VzCiMgU3BsaXQgb3V0 -cHV0IG9uZSB3b3JkIHBlciBsaW5lCiMgUmVtb3ZlIGVtcHR5IGxpbmVzCiMg -QWRkIHRoZSB2aW0gc3ludGF4IGNvbW1hbmRzIGZvciBheGlvbSBjb21tYW5k -cyB3aGljaCBhcmUgbWFkZSB1cCBvbmx5IGJ5IGtleXdvcmRzCiMgRXNjYXBl -IGFsbCBiYWNrc2xhc2hlcyBpbiBheGlvbSBjb21tYW5kcyAodGhlcmUgYXJl -IDIgb2YgdGhlbSkKIyBBZGQgdGhlIHZpbSBzeW50YXggY29tbWFuZHMgZm9y -IGF4aW9tIGNvbW1hbmRzIG1hZGUgYnkgc3ltYm9scwplY2hvICIpd2hhdCBv -cCIgfCAkRVhFIFwKCXwgc2VkICIxLC9eT3BlcmF0aW9ucyB3aG9zZS9kIiBc -Cgl8IHNlZCAiL14gIC8sXCRkIiBcCgl8IHNlZCAicy9cKCBcK1wpLyAvZyIg -XAoJfCBzZWQgInMvIC9cbi9nIiBcCgl8IHNlZCAiL14kL2QiIFwKCXwgc2Vk -ICJzL1woXlthLXpBLVpdLiokXCkvc3luIGtleXdvcmQgYXhPcGVyYXRpb24g -XDEvIiBcCgl8IHNlZCAicy9cXFxcL1xcXFxcXFxcLyIgXAoJfCBzZWQgICJz -L1woXltec10uKiRcKS9zeW4gbWF0Y2ggYXhPcGVyYXRpb24gXCJcXFxcVlwx -XFxcXG1cIi8iIFwKCT4gb3BlcmF0aW9ucy52aW0K - ---8323329-1106215213-1384294131=:2999-- - - \start Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:25:50 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> 1) Are curly brackets ever used in axiom syntax? @@ -1158,15 +816,10 @@ In any case, I exensively commented both the vim file and the script that I just submitted: producing it in a literate way I don't think I could add more. -Fabio - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: list, stf@unife.it +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:29:46 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file Fabio, @@ -1178,14 +831,10 @@ $globalExposureGroupAlist on line 24164 of books/bookvol5.pamphlet). Directly grepping the books will show all of them. -Tim - - \start -From: Tim Daly -To: list, stf@unife.it Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:39:28 -0500 - [generic] +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >>> 2) If I give the command (for example) @@ -1218,22 +867,12 @@ for the chunk environment is commented in the file books/tangle.lisp) Once that exists, which is the only really useful feature, everything else is pure latex. That eliminates the "weave" (noweave) step completely. -Tim - - \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:34:56 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file - This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, - while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. - ---8323329-1038405292-1384338898=:2997 - > Fabio, > > Note that if you search for category, domain, and package names @@ -1269,116 +908,10 @@ bookvol10.3.pamphlet: line 45520 looks and my guess is that it should be )abbrev domain FORTRAN FortranProgram -Regards - -Fabio - - ---8323329-1038405292-1384338898=:2997 - -IyEvYmluL3NoCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMKIyMKIyMgQ29weXJp -Z2h0IChDKSAyMDEzICBSYWxmIEhlbW1lY2tlIDxyYWxmQGhlbW1lY2tlLm9y -Zz4KIyMKIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj -IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIwojIyBUaGlzIHByb2dyYW0g -aXMgZnJlZSBzb2Z0d2FyZTogeW91IGNhbiByZWRpc3RyaWJ1dGUgaXQgYW5k -L29yIG1vZGlmeQojIyBpdCB1bmRlciB0aGUgdGVybXMgb2YgdGhlIEdOVSBH -ZW5lcmFsIFB1YmxpYyBMaWNlbnNlIGFzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBieQojIyB0aGUg -RnJlZSBTb2Z0d2FyZSBGb3VuZGF0aW9uLCBlaXRoZXIgdmVyc2lvbiAzIG9m 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---8323329-1038405292-1384338898=:2997-- - - \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:49:23 +0100 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 +From: Ralf Hemmecke To: list - - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > Please check if it works also for you. @@ -1405,47 +938,20 @@ https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom It would also be nice, if you can incorporate the code from Johannes Grabmeier (http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomInVim). -Ralf - - - \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:50:44 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 To: list - <52835933.2030407@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> Please check if it works also for you. Wait. I realized that you have removed the \< and \> markers. Why? -Ralf - - - - \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 12:41:01 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - - <52824F38.9040106@hemmecke.org> - - <52835933.2030407@hemmecke.org> <52835984.5090800@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >>> Please check if it works also for you. @@ -1480,29 +986,10 @@ Given the above, whenever possible I switched to "syn keyword" The match syntax is still necessary just for a bunch of operations which are made up of simbols. -Fabio - - - \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:15:12 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - - <52824F38.9040106@hemmecke.org> - - <52835933.2030407@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > Meanwhile, I've only removed redundant spaces and remove "-nosman" after @@ -1532,17 +1019,10 @@ own taste. maybe?) It doesn't seem to me a good idea to mix up syntax for different languages in the same file. Moreover, they are far too complex for me. -Fabio - - \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:32:00 +0100 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 -To: list, fricas-devel < >, - Johannes Grabmeier - - (bad octet value). +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: Johannes Grabmeier Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom @@ -1570,93 +1050,50 @@ vim-mode. Maybe your vim-mode could at least take advantage of the generated identifiers (https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom/blob/master/axiom/keywords.sh). -Ralf - - - \start -From: "Prof. Dr. Grabmeier Johannes" Johannes Grabmeier +From: Johannes Grabmeier Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:35:06 +0100 - - <52837140.90104@hemmecke.org> -To: - (bad octet value). -Cc: Johannes Grabmeier , - list +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: Vim syntax file -yes sure, we should merge the two solutions, if there are extra = -features, not covered yet. You are right, from time to time (at every = -release?), one should update the list of data structures an operations. +yes sure, we should merge the two solutions, if there are extra +features, not covered yet. You are right, from time to time (at every +release?), one should update the list of data structures an +operations. Am 13.11.2013 um 13:32 schrieb Ralf Hemmecke: >>> https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom ->=20 +> >>> It would also be nice, if you can incorporate the code from Johannes >>> Grabmeier (http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomInVim). ->=20 +> > I've now added that file as fricas.vim to the repository. ->=20 +> >> I don't think it is a good idea: ->> - keywords are defined as a different set (I tried to keep it = -minimal): +>> - keywords are defined as a different set (I tried to keep it minimal): >> this reuires some care in merging syntax definitions. >> - using the two differente files, axiom highlights result just in a ->> different color scheme: every vim user will change the color scheme = -to +>> different color scheme: every vim user will change the color scheme to >> its own taste. ->> - there are a lot of other syntax that are not relative to axiom = -(C++, ->> maybe?) It doesn't seem to me a good idea to mix up syntax for = -different ->> languages in the same file. Moreover, they are far too complex for = -me. ->=20 +>> - there are a lot of other syntax that are not relative to axiom (C++, +>> maybe?) It doesn't seem to me a good idea to mix up syntax for different +>> languages in the same file. Moreover, they are far too complex for me. +> > Right. I don't understand the vim-syntax, but it seems that all the -> things that start like cSomething (c-prefix) are not relevant for = -Axiom. ->=20 +> things that start like cSomething (c-prefix) are not relevant for Axiom. +> > Johannes, do you think you can help in merging Fabio's and your > vim-mode. Maybe your vim-mode could at least take advantage of the > generated identifiers -> = -(https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom/blob/master/axiom/keywords.sh). ->=20 -> Ralf ->=20 -> --=20 -> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = -Groups "FriCAS - computer algebra system" group. -> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = -an email to fricas-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. -> To post to this group, send email to . -> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fricas-devel. -> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. - - +> (https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom/blob/master/axiom/keywords.sh). \start Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 19:13:34 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - - <52824F38.9040106@hemmecke.org> - - <52835933.2030407@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). -Cc: Johannes Grabmeier , - list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file +Cc: Johannes Grabmeier > Please let's further develop via github. I don't like so much sending > files around. @@ -1677,11 +1114,10 @@ support in vim: I will modify mine if there are suggestions. Otherwise, I am satisfied with the version I have and I will post it on vim.org as the definitive (up to the next one... ) version. -Fabio - - \start Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:27:42 -0500 +From: Camm Maquire +To: list Subject: GCL 2.6.10 has been released Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce the release of version @@ -1813,162 +1249,10 @@ log: fix documentation formatting errors zero firstword in set_type_of macro to handle C stack objects -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire address@hidden -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - -\start -From: Camm Maguire -To: gcl-devel@gnu.org, maxima@math.utexas.edu, list, - open-axiom-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, - , Matt Kaufmann -Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:02:01 -0500 -Subject: GCL 2.6.10 has been released - -Greetings! The GCL team is happy to announce the release of version -2.6.10, the latest achievement in the 'stable' (as opposed to -'development') series. Please see http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl for -downloading information. - -This release addresses many of the issues introduced by the 2.6.9 -developments, in addition to using gmp for random number generation, -adding fast immediate fixnum operations for most functions, and -accelerating garbage collection and hash table lookups. From the git -log: - - randomize addresses as hash keys - refine readdir - optimize gethash loop - opendir,readdir,closedir functions - make object_to_string safe for text strings - no SGC on ia64 pending fix to getc/fread restart failure and hang - ensure-directories-exist and wild-pathname-p - changes for latest mingw on windows - Don't use TMP in configure for windows - prevent relocatable maxpage from extending beyond real_maxpage due to hole - no gprof on ia64, possible function descriptor corruption due to mcount - robustify allocation of environment and argument space in unrandomize.h - main.c typo fix - limit startup relblock pages to 5% of available_pages - NOFREE_ERR for ia64 - fix trailing slash removal pre lstat on mingw - optimize number_expt - add mpz_ui_pow_ui and mpz_pow_ui to gmp_wrappers.h - ensure that lstat takes no trailing slashes on mingw - reserve 8M stack on mingw, and start alloc probe at 0x20000000 for wine - initialize c stack variables in make_bignum before gc calling mpz_init_set - allow for nreloc overflow in coff, restoring acl2 on mingw - abandon stabs debug format on mingw as is now too small - limit text start search, restoring s390 build - make equal explicitly tail recursive on mingw to overcome compiler deficiency - add sys and child sys values to get-internal-run-time - optimize number_abs and number_signum - inlines for gcd and lcm - ctzl instruction, and defaults for clzl and ctzl when absent - fix type-and to properly order t and object - fix safe_mul, clz and fixnum_shft for corner cases - remove lfun prop to eq, eql, equal and equalp - remove redundant mod code - fix integer_divide1 call in number_expt - faster integer log functions - prototypes and optimization inlines for immnum functions - faster division algorithms -- FIXME centralize mod, do round - centralize inlined immnum logic in new immnum.h header - remove 'c1conditional property of 'boole - use clz in fixnum_times where available - try mpz_init_set in make_bignum -- FIXME stack of pre initialized bignums - don't mark link array when not collecting relblock - fix shifti bug - add gmp wrappers for the various division rounding modes - fix type-and so that t < '(values t t) - fix sublis1-inline for new predicate macros - faster eq,eql,equal, and equalp predicates - configure check for clzl instruction - define OBJNULL for hurd - separately protect mark_link_array from non-data cfd - remove unnecessary branches to marking of cfd code - backport #? inline string directive to ensure 'first' vararg is initialized - sgc mark phase typo - only sgc mark old contiguous data when collecting contiguous - remove null value error in mv-ref to accommodate low immediate fixnums - fix bds_top capture bug in bds_bind macro (e.g. arg eval changes bds_top) - scale initial relblock with heap size instead of available_pages - try initial relblock scale of twice heap pages - unset si::*optimize-maximum-pages* in raw image to limit unexec file size - clear gcc warnings regarding ignored function return values - function def typo - scale maxrbpage and new_holepage with available_pages on startup - clarify room report - disable safecdr by default - widecons configure option - memcpy to speed up relocatable gc - set_bits fix for i1==i2 - edit_double overflow fix - set_bits fix - get_sgc_bits bug fix - get_bits debugging 2 - fix to get_bits - get_bits/set_bits debugging - update tm_maxpage in sgc_start - report low immfix in (room t) - use tee in test_results target - imcdr typo fix - default to high immfix, check cstack for low immfix - enable-safecdr and enable-safecdrdbg configure options - gbc accelerations - support for low immediate fixnums - box all fixnums in cdr, and speed all object typing - gethash/hash-set optimizers - add safety page to relocatable gc to workaround unexplained overwrite FIXME - make sure gprof arrays are writable in sgc - fix edit_double, failure to print 1d-6 - rework sane default to contiguous and relocatable tm_table parameters - simplify and speedup marking of old data on sgc pages - make sure contiguous sgc_minfree gets initialized with sane value - revert set_type_of to preserve sgc bit, init stack objects with static - reinit_gmp prototype - reinit_gmp on mips to fix (random), where LD_BIND_NOW is also required - correct cpage macro for new sgc contblock bit - zero mark bits on contblock allocation - define ADDR_COMPAT_LAYOUT and ADDR_LIMIT_3GB if not present in configure - eliminate preclear of contblock mark bits - sgc bit for contiguous pages, need low mem for code on 64bit - prefer low memory when loading code to satisfy jump bit constraints - backport of gmp random numbers from master - lintian fix to VirtualFree call in unexnt.c - rehardwire heap start address on windows - try not fixing heap start address on windws - try for up to 2 Gb heap on windows - try to fix deallocation in windows heap probe - clean windows heap size probe - don't rely on errno on macosx heap size probe - try to probe heap size on windows - Use brk wrapper around sbrk to consolidate behavior when latter is emulated - probe heap size up to 32Gb on macosx - allocate gcl_zone_body in static area, as malloc_create_zone returns a pointer to read-only memory in macosx 10.8 - work around unlinkable profile prototype in macosx 10.8 64bit - clear prototype mismatch warning - Set windows heap start to stable 0x10100000 of 2.6.8 for now - place parenthesis around argument to cast in make_fixnum, fix invalid lvalue - support for empty filenames following -f on command line - fix documentation formatting errors - zero firstword in set_type_of macro to handle C stack objects - -Take care, --- -Camm Maguire address@hidden -========================================================================== -"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: "Fabio S." , list Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:52:00 -0500 - [generic] +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file Fabio wrote: @@ -1992,18 +1276,12 @@ This was correced in Axiom. I grepped the current sources and every instance is correct. -Tim - - \start Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:10:56 +0800 -From: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong +From: Jia Zhao Cong To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: bug in books/tangle.lisp ---001a1133536a56660904eb37c47f - I was going to make http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/images/AxiomEmacsMode.pamphlet functioning again, so I use '\begin{chunk}' to get it compiled by latex. @@ -2018,30 +1296,10 @@ is gcl only and I use )lisp (tangle "AxiomEmacsMode.pamphlet" "*" "AxiomEmacsMode.el") to get what I want. ---001a1133536a56660904eb37c47f - -
I was going to make
http://axiom-wiki.new= -synthesis.org/images/AxiomEmacsMode.pamphlet
functioning again, so = -I use '\begin{chunk}' to get it compiled by latex.
-

When trying to tangle it to get back .el, use tangle.lisp with sb= -cl, get the bug:

first char in line 128 should be ; inste= -ad of :

sbcl also complains about si::getenv. Then I find= - out that tangle.lisp
-
is gcl only and I use
=C2=A0 )lisp (tangle "A= -xiomEmacsMode.pamphlet" "*" "AxiomEmacsMode.el")
to get what I want.
- ---001a1133536a56660904eb37c47f-- - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:10:56 +0800) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:50:20 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp >sbcl also complains about si::getenv. Then I find out that tangle.lisp @@ -2052,16 +1310,10 @@ Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp tangle is GCL only? I suppose so since si::getenv is GCL. I will fix that to be portable. -Tim - - - \start Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:01:03 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp On 11/15/2013 03:10 PM, jiazhaoconga wrote: @@ -2076,19 +1328,12 @@ https://github.com/hemmecke/fricas-svn/tree/master/contrib/emacs I believe that http://axiom-wiki.newsynthesis.org/AxiomEmacsMode is quite old and perhaps out of date. -Ralf - - - \start Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:53:28 +0800 -From: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong +From: Jia Zhao Cong To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp ---047d7b33cd745fd9a004eb426b7e - > tangle is GCL only? I suppose so since si::getenv is GCL. Yes, after I commented those blocks, sbcl still gives no output, no error. @@ -2106,46 +1351,14 @@ and AxiomEmacsMode/fricas.el, because both have very good features: other buffer -- I think it's a work flow even better that REPL. axiom-environment doesn't support pile at all(which is very very -inconvenient), -that's why I'm trying to combine them together. - ---047d7b33cd745fd9a004eb426b7e - -
>= -; tangle is GCL only? I suppose so since si::getenv is GCL.
Yes, a= -fter I commented those blocks, sbcl still gives no output, no error.
-> Maybe you should also take a look into
> https://github.com/he= -mmecke/fricas-svn/tree/master/contrib/emacs

Thank you, fri= -cas.el is very nice. Save a lot trouble.
-

I am combining https://bitbucket.org/pdo/axiom-environment/
and = -AxiomEmacsMode/fricas.el, because both have very good features:
-- AxiomEmacsMode/fricas.el provide "axiom-yank/fricas-yank", can = -save
=C2=A0 a pile to a temp file and ')read' it back auto= -matically.
- axiom-environment offers a very nice help system, and= - a spad-mode
-
=C2=A0 which I can write programs in one buffer while execute part of= - it in the
=C2=A0 other buffer -- I think it's a work flow eve= -n better that REPL.

axiom-environment doesn't support pile= - at all(which is very very inconvenient),
-that's why I'm trying to combine them together.

- ---047d7b33cd745fd9a004eb426b7e-- - +inconvenient), that's why I'm trying to combine them together. \start Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:30:56 +0100 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 -To: list, fricas-devel < >, - Jia Zhao Cong - (bad octet value). +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp -Hi, - Oh, fine... I'd really appreciate an improvement of fricas.el. Where is your github repo? @@ -2160,9 +1373,6 @@ and whatever. Since I'm much more interested in emacs-mode, I'd be very happy if someone having time and expertise to take a look at it and improve it. -Ralf - - On 11/16/2013 03:53 AM, jiazhaoconga wrote: >> tangle is GCL only? I suppose so since si::getenv is GCL. > Yes, after I commented those blocks, sbcl still gives no output, no error. @@ -2184,17 +1394,12 @@ On 11/16/2013 03:53 AM, jiazhaoconga wrote: > inconvenient), > that's why I'm trying to combine them together. - - \start Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 23:46:42 +0800 -From: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong -To: list, fricas-devel < > - (bad octet value). +From: Jia Zhao Cong +To: list Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp ---047d7b33d414a8b77a04eb4d385c - > Anyway, you have probably seen keywords.sh. > https://github.com/hemmecke/vim-panaxiom/tree/master/axiom @@ -2238,53 +1443,10 @@ or wait a few more days. The code is mostly copied from ESS, lots of details need to implement. ---047d7b33d414a8b77a04eb4d385c - -
and the author updates it a few times, but there is no documentation<= -br>
about how to do it.

In ${FRICASROOT}/= -algebra/*.daase, these files seem like database.
Only in fric= -as these files contain lots of ascii instead of lots of numbers.
-
> Since I'm much more interested in emacs-mode, I'd be very = -happy if
> someone having time and expertise to take a look at it and= - improve it.

https://github.com/ustcscgy/axiom-environment/tree/fricas= -.el
-
I implement=C2=A0 fricas.el's "fricas-yank" fu= -nctionality into axiom-environment's
axiom-spad-mode, but= - much much more user friendly.

This has been hacked for o= -nly a few hours, lots of stuff to improve, but
-
it's enough to express my ideal workflow:

= -(add-to-list 'load-path "~/.emacs.d/axiom-environment/")
(= -require 'axiom)

M-x run-axiom
C-x C-f t= -est.spad ;; open a .spad file
-

-- you can write a one-line function, then press = -C-c C-c to run
integrate(x,x)

-- you can wr= -ite piles, this is what I want
-- press C-c C-c to run
-
1+
=C2=A0 2
=C2=A0 3

At the moment, this= - is just a proof of concept. You are welcomed to try now
or w= -ait a few more days.

The code is mostly copied= - from ESS, lots of details need to implement.
-

-
- ---047d7b33d414a8b77a04eb4d385c-- - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:53:28 +0800) +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:20:12 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp books/tangle.lisp has some support code for automating axiom-specific @@ -2299,16 +1461,10 @@ One version is available at http://daly.axiom-developer.org/tangle.c -Tim - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: jiazhaoconga Jia Zhao Cong - (message from jiazhaoconga on Sat, 16 Nov 2013 23:46:42 +0800) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:50:29 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Jia Zhao Cong Subject: Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp First I need to mention the fact that Axiom refers to the Axiom @@ -2368,16 +1524,10 @@ Note that Axiom does not support "pile mode" in the input. You would need to have trailing underscores on the input or write the expression to a .input file and )read it. -Tim - - - \start Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 19:07:29 +0100 -From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 -To: , axiom-dev - (bad octet value). +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp On 11/16/2013 04:46 PM, jiazhaoconga wrote: @@ -2410,23 +1560,12 @@ by Aldor syntax. As you can certainly see, aldor.el is just a hack to make myself happy. I'm not an elisp programmer after all. -Ralf - - \start -From: Paul Onions -To: Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 19:38:14 +0000 - (bad octet value). -Cc: list +From: Paul Onions +To: list Subject: Re: [fricas-devel] Re: bug in books/tangle.lisp - ---Apple-Mail-10-449085344 - charset=US-ASCII; - format=flowed; - delsp=yes - Hello jiazhaoconga, On 16 Nov 2013, at 15:46, jiazhaoconga wrote: @@ -2481,66 +1620,10 @@ back into it again! So is this your main motivation, to evaluate fragments of files interactively? If so, looks useful! -Regards, -Paul Onions (the author of axiom-environment) - - ---Apple-Mail-10-449085344 - charset=US-ASCII - -Hello jiazhaoconga,

On 16 Nov 2013, at 15:46, = -jiazhaoconga wrote:
and the author updates it a few times, but there is no = -documentation
about how to do = -it.

Look in file = -axiom-build-utils.el, where you'll find emacs-lisp functions to extract = -package, domain, category and operation names from a running = -Axiom/FriCAS/OpenAxiom session.  The function = -axiom-make-standard-info-files at the bottom of the file can be used to = -update all the symbol files.

In ${FRICASROOT}/algebra/*.daase, these files seem like = -database.
Only in fricas these files contain lots of ascii = -instead of lots of numbers.

> Since I'm much more interested = -in emacs-mode, I'd be very happy if
> someone having time and = -expertise to take a look at it and improve it.

http= -s://github.com/ustcscgy/axiom-environment/tree/fricas.el
= -
I implement  fricas.el's "fricas-yank" functionality = -into axiom-environment's
axiom-spad-mode, but much much = -more user friendly.

I'm happy = -to consider patches for improved functionality.  I haven't really = -touched the code for a few months, so maybe it's time I got back into it = -again!

This = -has been hacked for only a few hours, lots of stuff to improve, but
= -
it's enough to express my ideal = -workflow:

(add-to-list 'load-path = -"~/.emacs.d/axiom-environment/")
(require = -'axiom)

M-x run-axiom
C-x C-f test.spad = -;; open a .spad file

-- you can write a = -one-line function, then press C-c C-c to = -run
integrate(x,x)

-- you can write = -piles, this is what I want
-- press C-c C-c to run
= -
1+
  2
  = -3

So is this your main = -motivation, to evaluate fragments of files interactively?  If so, = -looks useful!

Regards,
Paul Onions = -(the author of axiom-environment)

= - ---Apple-Mail-10-449085344-- - - \start From: Tim Daly Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:28:26 -0600 To: list - [generic] Subject: Latex and html5 This is interesting. I'm trying to incorporate it into the @@ -2549,24 +1632,12 @@ literate programs in mathematics will find it useful. http://latex2html5.com -Tim - - \start Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 19:09:11 +0000 From: Martin Baker - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 To: list - tug9TCc8NMzFxO2EitE4crUuN7Sb0UPjxxjnbcZcw3zDmlgGWP - vah8dLU8g60jWS1WkE5J2nYJXlwDRneOG51QLhuNXBvqMqjsXq - iUcugXsTpyKvlFfoxPuWN90Rs9dLJQrsKMvPHHY0K2iE8y6iMK - dA1g4kR92z6UUTR4Ul1ehqvTQgQVbb0otMkWbuqUqahz9VrCT3 - A8HjNwurZ8ohVjSpCe0VzaIAvDAxh4LUv+ZwNaayRmb4fKLq1l - R8+pvPWoADcbd3SqiEwvVtQCb22kKdI9vi1cy9sSCvRrmr8eyv - kWdTqpf/Hynh+7ivm+9M= Subject: Re: Latex and html5 - On 17/11/13 18:28, Tim Daly wrote: > This is interesting. I'm trying to incorporate it into the > new Axiom browser-based front end. However, anyone doing @@ -2583,29 +1654,10 @@ bit hyperdoc like. If only it could link to spad code instead of (or in addition to) javascript that would be really powerful. -Martin - - - \start Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:07:29 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - <3851E746-FAAC-4CD9-A35B-D555D3E35AE7@ya.ru> - - <527F8DDA.1070307@hemmecke.org> - - <5280CC9F.4050801@hemmecke.org> - - <52814C1A.8010800@hemmecke.org> - - <52822343.9040001@hemmecke.org> - - <52824F38.9040106@hemmecke.org> - - <52835933.2030407@hemmecke.org> - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file >> Please check if it works also for you. @@ -2627,16 +1679,10 @@ Since I didn't make any other correction to the syntax files, I am thinking to submit this version at vim.org as "final" (whatever this could mean...!) -Thanks - -Fabio - - \start Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:18:39 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > When you are happy with your vim file send me a copy and @@ -2656,32 +1702,18 @@ categories, domains and packages). If you think in can be of any interest, you can include it wherever you want. -Regards - -Fabio - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: "Fabio S." Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:10:10 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file -Fabio, - Uploaded to where? -Tim - - \start Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:25:44 +0100 (CET) -From: "Fabio S." +From: Fabio Stumbo To: list -cc: list - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Vim syntax file > Fabio, @@ -2693,27 +1725,20 @@ To vim.org: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=4765 -Fabio - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: stf@unife.it Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:30:39 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file Got it. Thanks. I'll add it to the zips directory. --Tim - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: list Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:49:30 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: stf@unife.it +From: Tim Daly +To: list Subject: Re: Vim syntax file +Cc: Fabio Stumbo A new vim syntax file has been added to Axiom, written by Fabio Stumbo. It provides syntax highlighting for Axiom spad files which are the @@ -2731,40 +1756,20 @@ au BufNewFile,BufRead *.input *.spad exe "source ~/.vim/syntax/axiom.vim" au BufRead,BufNewFile *.pamphlet setfiletype tex au BufRead,BufNewFile *.pamphlet exe "source ~/.vim/syntax/pamphlet.vim" - \start -From: Tim Daly -To: stf@unife.it Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:50:59 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Fabio Stumbo Subject: Re: Vim syntax file -Fabio, - I've added it to the distribution and pushed it to the repositories. -Many thanks. - -Tim - - \start -From: Paul Onions -To: list Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:34:34 +0000 - (bad octet value). -Cc: +From: Paul Onions +To: list Subject: Emacs axiom-environment update - ---Apple-Mail-12--913818429 - charset=US-ASCII; - format=flowed; - delsp=yes - -Hi All, - I've just pushed an update to axiom-environment that adds a function called axiom-process-read-region. This function copies the current region to a temporary file then )read's it into the running Axiom @@ -2789,32 +1794,3 @@ On 16 Nov 2013, at 02:53, jiazhaoconga wrote: > that's why I'm trying to combine them together. ---Apple-Mail-12--913818429 - charset=US-ASCII - -Hi All,

I've = -just pushed an update to axiom-environment that adds a function called = -axiom-process-read-region.  This function copies the current region = -to a temporary file then )read's it into the running Axiom process. = - As such it works with piled code.  By default it is bound to = -C-c C-y.

Paul

On = -16 Nov 2013, at 02:53, jiazhaoconga wrote:

and AxiomEmacsMode/fricas.el, = -because both have very good features:
- = -AxiomEmacsMode/fricas.el provide "axiom-yank/fricas-yank", can = -save
  a pile to a temp file and ')read' it back = -automatically.
- axiom-environment offers a very nice help = -system, and a spad-mode
  which I can write programs in = -one buffer while execute part of it in the
  other buffer = --- I think it's a work flow even better that = -REPL.

axiom-environment doesn't support pile at all(which = -is very very inconvenient),
that's why I'm trying to combine them = -together.

= - ---Apple-Mail-12--913818429-- - - diff --git a/book/2013-12.txt b/book/2013-12.txt index 4b08353..58b1d4e 100644 --- a/book/2013-12.txt +++ b/book/2013-12.txt @@ -1,10 +1,8 @@ \start +Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:31:05 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: list -Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:31:05 -0500 - [generic] -Subject: [koepf@mathematik.uni-kassel.de: CASC 2014: - Reminder Call for Papers] +Subject: [Wolfram Koepf: CASC 2014: Reminder Call for Papers] Dear colleagues, @@ -67,13 +65,11 @@ Deadline for submission: April 06, 2014 Notification of acceptance: May 25, 2014 Deadline for final version: June 08, 2014 - \start -From: Gerwin Klein -To: acl2@utlists.utexas.edu Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:07:24 +1100 +From: Gerwin Klein +To: list Subject: ITP 2015 - Call for Bids -Errors-to: acl2-owner@utlists.utexas.edu Call for Bids ITP 2015, 6th International Conference on Interactive Theorem Proving @@ -109,8 +105,6 @@ eligible to vote are those who are seriously thinking of attending ITP 2015. The voting system used will be Single Transferable Vote between all received bids. -Gerwin Klein -Ruben Gamboa diff --git a/book/2014-01.txt b/book/2014-01.txt index 73d195e..44d8d96 100644 --- a/book/2014-01.txt +++ b/book/2014-01.txt @@ -2,11 +2,8 @@ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:02:50 +1100 From: Alasdair McAndrew To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: A few issues with a newly compiled axiom ---047d7b34397086b45104f06e0d7e - I have just compiled and installed axiom on Ubuntu 12.04, following the Ubuntu instructions here: @@ -34,129 +31,35 @@ Ctrl-E. Or can I set up some environment variables somewhere which will allow this? (I started axiom within the KDE Konsole; I guess I could try another terminal emulator - there are lots to choose from!) -Thanks very much! - --Alasdair - --- -Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.com -Web: http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/ -Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew - ---047d7b34397086b45104f06e0d7e - -
I have just compiled and installe= -d axiom on Ubuntu 12.04, following the Ubuntu instructions here:

http://= -www.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/download.html
-
and I installed my axiom in=A0 /opt/axiom However:

(= -1) hypertex doesn't start; instead I get an error message:

"= -;(HyperDoc) Warning: Not connected to AXIOM Server!
ReadBitmapFile: File= - >/opt/axiom/mnt/ubuntu/share/hypertex/bitmaps/menudot.bitmap< not fo= -und"
-
which would seem to indicate that hypertex is looking somewhere e= -lse for its files.=A0 Does this mean that hypertex needs to be compiled sep= -arately, or is it just a matter of fixing up a configuration file somewhere= -?
-
(2) I can't get axiom to work in TeXmacs.=A0 Even though axio= -m is in my path, and TeXmacs is started from a shell which includes the cor= -rect values for PATH and AXIOM, "Axiom" doesn't exist as a po= -ssible session type.
-
(3) Can I get axiom to play nicely with GNU-Readline?=A0 I'd = -like my Home and End keys to go to those places on an input line, and also = -Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E.=A0 Or can I set up some environment variables somewhere = -which will allow this?=A0 (I started axiom within the KDE Konsole; I guess = -I could try another terminal emulator - there are lots to choose from!)
-

Thanks very much!

-Alasdair

--
Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.com
Web:=A0 <= -a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/" target=3D"_blank">http://si= -tes.google.com/site/amca01/
-Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew -
- ---047d7b34397086b45104f06e0d7e-- - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Alasdair McAndrew - (message from Alasdair McAndrew on Tue, - 21 Jan 2014 09:02:50 +1100) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 00:38:10 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Alasdair McAndrew Subject: Re: A few issues with a newly compiled axiom I will look into your questions as soon as I can -- Tim - \start Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:54:19 +1100 From: Alasdair McAndrew -To: u1204 Tim Daly, list - (bad octet value). +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: A few issues with a newly compiled axiom ---047d7bdc8f1adfc2c804f0820cbf - I should mention that I have the same errors with a compiled axiom, the axiom from the Ubuntu repositories (installed with sudo apt-get install axiom), and the axiom Ubuntu binaries downloaded and installed from the axiom-developer.org site. -Thanks, -Alasdair - - -On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:38 PM, u1204 Tim Daly wrote: +On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > I will look into your questions as soon as I can -- Tim -> - - - --- -Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.com -Web: http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/ -Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew - ---047d7bdc8f1adfc2c804f0820cbf - -
I should mention that I have the same errors wit= -h a compiled axiom, the axiom from the Ubuntu repositories (installed with = -sudo apt-get install axiom), and the axiom Ubuntu binaries downloaded and i= -nstalled from the axiom-developer.or= -g site.
-
Thanks,
Alasdair

On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:38 PM, u1204 <Tim Daly> wrote:
-
I will look into your questions as soon as I= - can -- Tim
-



--
Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.comWeb:=A0 http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/
-Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew -
- ---047d7bdc8f1adfc2c804f0820cbf-- - \start Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:12:34 +1100 From: Alasdair McAndrew To: list - (bad octet value). Subject: "Sage-type" notebook in a web browser ---047d7b6dc25022675d04f09819ba - One of the to-do's at http://www.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/currentstate.html @@ -181,57 +84,10 @@ One of the problems seems to me is that for whatever reason, Axiom is niche software, and doesn't have the user base of either Maxima or Sage. It might be hard to garner support for such projects as this. -Just a thought. - --Alasdair - --- -Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.com -Web: http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/ -Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew - ---047d7b6dc25022675d04f09819ba - -
One of the to-do's at

http= -://www.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/currentstate.html

is &q= -uot;Write Notebook Front End".
-
I think that this should be do-able by somebody with expertise, a= -nd with time on their hands (i.e, not me!).=A0 Sage does it by simply piggy= --backing on iPython (http://ipython.org/), which provides a full API for a web-based notebook.
-
Other languages which have used iPython for this include Julia (<= -a href=3D"http://julialang.org/">http://julialang.org/), with its IJuli= -a package (https://githu= -b.com/JuliaLang/IJulia.jl) and Haskell with IHaskell (https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell)= -.=A0 Other examples are given at https://github.com/ipython/ipython/wiki/Pr= -ojects-using-IPython.=A0 Given iPython, I would have thought that it wo= -uld be quite possible to write a front end for Axiom, which applies LaTeX t= -o the output so as to give nicely formatted display (again, I think this is= - provided by iPython).
-
One of the problems seems to me is that for whatever reason,= - Axiom is niche software, and doesn't have the user base of either Maxi= -ma or Sage.=A0 It might be hard to garner support for such projects as this= -.
-

Just a thought.

-Alasdair

- ---047d7b6dc25022675d04f09819ba-- - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:23:02 -0600 -To: Alasdair McAndrew, list - [generic] +From: Tim Daly +To: Alasdair McAndrew Subject: "Sage-type" notebook in a web browser > One of the to-do's at @@ -273,8 +129,6 @@ I'm being thick about reading the specs. Anyway we both know that Everything takes time. Hence the phrase "The 30 Year Horizon". - - > One of the problems seems to me is that for whatever reason, Axiom is niche > software, and doesn't have the user base of either Maxima or Sage. It > might be hard to garner support for such projects as this. @@ -288,17 +142,10 @@ See http://www.ams.org/notices/201202/rtx120200320.pdf ... therefore literate programming. -Tim - - - - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:21:51 -0600 -To: Alasdair McAndrew, list - [generic] +From: Tim Daly +To: Alasdair McAndrew Subject: "Sage-type" notebook in a web browser > Thank you for your reply! I've had a quick go at installing the browser @@ -312,8 +159,6 @@ not yet 'production ready' so I haven't said much about it here. There is still a lot of work to do before it replaces Hyperdoc although most of it is low-level grind-it-out things I know how to do. Time, yaknow? - - > What do you thing about using iPython, though? I've used Python professionally. It is quite nice for simple scripts @@ -335,9 +180,6 @@ in Axiom. Meta is gone. Boot is gone. Noweb is disappearing. C is being rewritten out of the system. Make will disappear eventually. So I certainly have no plans to introduce Python. - - - > When I said Axiom was a "niche system", I meant in no way to belittle it - > I think Axiom has qualities far and above every other system currently > available - it just seems to me to have a small user-base (worse because of @@ -386,20 +228,10 @@ computational mathematics, and a potentially larger user base. Tim Curmudgeon-at-Large. - - - - - - \start +Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:30:38 -0500 From: Tim Daly To: Alasdair McAndrew - (message from Alasdair McAndrew on Thu, - 23 Jan 2014 21:44:10 +1100) -Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:30:38 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list Subject: Re: "Sage-type" notebook in a web browser > I'll write the answer you deserve soon, but just one point: according to @@ -444,8 +276,6 @@ program is literate you ought to modify the global constant to say subroutine depends on the value being a minimum of 255. The subroutine uses this as a bitmask to .... - - Now consider the same situation where you read: PHI = 3.17313 @@ -460,18 +290,10 @@ Who knows? The author has failed to communicate. -Tim - - - - - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 16:04:37 -0600 +From: Tim Daly To: list - [generic] Subject: Academy Award goes to a literate program >From http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4876: @@ -482,13 +304,10 @@ Rendering. This is the first time the award has been given to a book and (more relevant to LtU) the first time a literate program has won an Academy Award. - - \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 06:05:50 -0600 +From: Tim Daly To: list - [generic] Subject: Reproducible Research I would strongly recommend that you watch this video. @@ -496,6 +315,5 @@ This uses Emacs+org-mode and shows impressive results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-dUkyn_fZA -Tim diff --git a/book/2014-03.txt b/book/2014-03.txt index b102333..2143422 100644 --- a/book/2014-03.txt +++ b/book/2014-03.txt @@ -1,9 +1,7 @@ \start Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 14:05:26 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 -To: axiom-dev - (bad octet value). +To: list Subject: Online Documentation broken Hi Tim, @@ -11,15 +9,10 @@ Hi Tim, it seems that the links to "Online Book" and "Documentation" are currently broken on http://www.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/. -Ralf - - \start Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:53:53 +0100 From: Ralf Hemmecke - rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 To: axiom-dev - (bad octet value). Subject: Re: Online Documentation broken On 03/01/2014 02:05 PM, Ralf Hemmecke wrote: @@ -38,16 +31,10 @@ Looks like a problem with relative links. http://www.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/ should probably not be visible by itself. -Ralf - - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: Ralf Hemmecke - 01 Mar 2014 18:53:53 +0100) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 13:34:25 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list +From: Tim Daly +To: Ralf Hemmecke Subject: Re: Online Documentation broken The URL you are looking at has "axiom-website" repeated twice. @@ -56,15 +43,10 @@ I grepped all of the axiom website. This does not occur. Google seems broken. Go to axiom-developer.org and check the links. -Tim - - \start -From: William Sit -To: Ralf Hemmecke,axiom-dev - Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 02:05:03 -0500 - <53121EB1.7010705@hemmecke.de> +From: William Sit +To: Ralf Hemmecke Subject: Re: Online Documentation broken The website @@ -109,33 +91,17 @@ On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:53:53 +0100 > http://www.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/ should >probably not be > visible by itself. -> -> Ralf -> -> _______________________________________________ -> Axiom-developer mailing list -> list -> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer - -William Sit, Professor Emeritus -Mathematics, City College of New York -Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 -Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ - \start -From: u1204 Tim Daly -To: William Sit Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 00:48:10 -0500 - [generic] -Cc: list, Ralf Hemmecke +From: Tim Daly +To: William Sit Subject: Re: Online Documentation broken +Cc: Ralf Hemmecke William, Ralf walked down a directory, which should have worked anyway. There was a missing CSS connection. I fixed it. -Tim - diff --git a/book/2014-04.txt b/book/2014-04.txt index fb31473..4e09bb9 100644 --- a/book/2014-04.txt +++ b/book/2014-04.txt @@ -1,24 +1,17 @@ \start -From: Tim Daly Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:32:20 -0500 +From: Tim Daly To: list - [generic] Subject: Category Theory Talk An interesting talk on Category Theory at LispNYC http://www.hakkalabs.co/articles/category-theory-tom-lagatta -Tim - - - \start Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 20:54:06 -0400 From: Bill Page -To: Daly Tim Daly - [fuzzy] -Cc: list +To: Tim Daly Subject: Re: Category Theory Talk I want to know what this guy was drinking during his talk. diff --git a/book/2014-05 b/book/2014-05 new file mode 100644 index 0000000..0bda7ef --- /dev/null +++ b/book/2014-05 @@ -0,0 +1,6302 @@ +From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 09 13:17:56 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WioQm-00064p-A4 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:17:56 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38270) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WioQf-00063n-Ml + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:17:54 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WioQa-0002nk-FY + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:17:49 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:48598 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WioQa-0002ng-AQ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:17:44 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s49HHeFI017068 + for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 12:17:42 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id BBFE068788; Fri, 9 May 2014 13:16:19 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Message-Id: <20140509171619.BBFE068788@u1204> +Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 13:16:19 -0400 (EDT) +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 17:17:55 -0000 + +With respect to "documentation" of open source software... + +"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it +means." -- "The Princess Bride" + +The notion that "reading the code" is the ultimate truth for +"documentation" is based on a misunderstanding at so many levels it is +hard to explain. In fact, most of the ideas don't begin to cover +"documenting the system". Fortunately, Robert Lefkowitz absolutely +illuminates the scope of the problem in these delightful talks. + +For those who have not heard it, this is truly a treat. +For those who "document" this is a must-hear. + +Robert Lefkowitz -- The Semasiology of Open Source +http://web.archive.org/web/20130729214526id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail169.html +http://web.archive.org/web/20130729210039id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail662.html + +Tim Daly + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 09 13:44:05 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wioq5-0005Pa-OA + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:44:05 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45912) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wiopz-0005NT-0z + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:44:04 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wiopt-0003HK-JY + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:43:58 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:34351 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wiopt-0003HG-EE + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 13:43:53 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s49HhqFI019020; + Fri, 9 May 2014 12:43:52 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s49HhqER019017; + Fri, 9 May 2014 12:43:52 -0500 +Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 12:43:52 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405091743.s49HhqER019017@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 17:44:04 -0000 + +There is a 3rd part to this series. Enjoy... + +Robert Lefkowitz -- The Semasiology of Open Source (part 3) + +http://daviding.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/robert-lefkowitz-the-semasiology-of-open-source-part-iii-oscon-2007-it-conversations-20060726/ + +Tim + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 09 16:38:42 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WirZ4-000749-G3 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:38:42 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58049) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WirYy-00072z-0l + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:38:41 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WirYs-0005lQ-Qc + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:38:35 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:45359 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WirYs-0005lM-Kt + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:38:30 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s49KcSFI021210; + Fri, 9 May 2014 15:38:28 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s49KcRcS021207; + Fri, 9 May 2014 15:38:27 -0500 +Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 15:38:27 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405092038.s49KcRcS021207@axiom-developer.org> +To: "Bill Naylor" +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Polynomial GCD code +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 20:38:41 -0000 + +Bill, + +Do you have a copy of your thesis code in Axiom? +If so, can I have a copy to try to incorporate into Axiom? + +Tim Daly +daly@axiom-developer.org +http://daly.axiom-developer.org + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 11 04:57:49 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjPZt-0005d2-Lq + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 04:57:49 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33488) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjPZm-0005cM-TQ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 04:57:48 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjPZh-0007aT-Kr + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 04:57:42 -0400 +Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.131]:65490) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjPZh-0007aI-Bl + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 04:57:37 -0400 +Received: from [192.168.1.65] ([94.195.43.120]) + by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreue006) with ESMTP (Nemesis) + id 0LxHby-1Wu0MG12zq-016wc0; Sun, 11 May 2014 10:57:34 +0200 +Message-ID: <536F3B52.8050907@martinb.com> +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 09:56:50 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +Organization: axiom +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <20140509171619.BBFE068788@u1204> +In-Reply-To: <20140509171619.BBFE068788@u1204> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:K7lvEWAZZCTjgaunMNvGec0jtXiDWrs+lrATEaVrDil + CrYBPznM+jD68VFftOVKqaq46twR+1m7obJ6vBNYuQiOOoXm0v + kF6G+50bKXEMmrnMTdo4iRBMivNhWJgsHVTH3nPTc4gMAw8HJV + ZWITNtpUL0dshesUnGx4kNVKTA29M3UUA2pnR2fv7XHfuslPuT + iLb+CFDk2QdhcaWX/ePKoU9JEWGnqpLj3EC0ucC9A0vYJ+rm/Y + xRHsBGSI95YyJG/AhjIvnmUL5tGTAWcqy0wkKWomNfx4Zt6zKF + aZAOBq8zqg99yd2cwxB2nrl/MTig4YJ/AxEQ7XmO9yN8LM5c+d + ezztGh8Set1jjjHydgBgVaKnRbvV6/cq7KuTUDrzJ +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] +X-Received-From: 212.227.126.131 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 08:57:48 -0000 + +On 09/05/14 18:16, Tim Daly wrote: +> With respect to "documentation" of open source software... +> +> "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it +> means." -- "The Princess Bride" +> +> The notion that "reading the code" is the ultimate truth for +> "documentation" is based on a misunderstanding at so many levels it is +> hard to explain. In fact, most of the ideas don't begin to cover +> "documenting the system". Fortunately, Robert Lefkowitz absolutely +> illuminates the scope of the problem in these delightful talks. +> +> For those who have not heard it, this is truly a treat. +> For those who "document" this is a must-hear. +> +> Robert Lefkowitz -- The Semasiology of Open Source +> http://web.archive.org/web/20130729214526id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail169.html +> http://web.archive.org/web/20130729210039id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail662.html + +So what should one do if one wants to modify parts of Axiom (or its +forks) where all there is is the code? + +Should one: +1) Trace through the code and try to reverse engineer the documentation, +then modify that. +2) Try to understand generally what it does (such as working out what +the inputs and outputs are). Then rewrite it from scratch in a +documentation led way. + +For me, in a lot of cases, I would prefer option 2. I would not claim to +be as smart as the original authors, any algorithm that I would come up +with might be less efficient and inferior in many respects. However I +would try to document it as well as I could and try to make it a better +basis for future improvement. Also, if I am going to make mistakes, at +least I would learn more from my own mistakes. + +Martin + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 11 15:36:12 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjZXg-0006AT-7i + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:36:12 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39895) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjZXW-00068z-Nq + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:36:10 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjZXP-0006ce-7E + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:36:02 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:36506 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjZXP-0006cX-1f + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:35:55 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4BJZlFI017923; + Sun, 11 May 2014 14:35:48 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id 5397268921; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:35:47 -0400 (EDT) +From: u1204 +To: Martin Baker +In-Reply-To: <536F3B52.8050907@martinb.com> (message from Martin Baker on Sun, + 11 May 2014 09:56:50 +0100) +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 15:35:47 -0400 +Message-ID: <874n0wrtv0.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 19:36:10 -0000 + +> So what should one do if one wants to modify parts of Axiom (or its +> forks) where all there is is the code? +> +> Should one: +> 1) Trace through the code and try to reverse engineer the documentation, +> then modify that. +> 2) Try to understand generally what it does (such as working out what +> the inputs and outputs are). Then rewrite it from scratch in a +> documentation led way. +> +> For me, in a lot of cases, I would prefer option 2. I would not claim to +> be as smart as the original authors, any algorithm that I would come up +> with might be less efficient and inferior in many respects. However I +> would try to document it as well as I could and try to make it a better +> basis for future improvement. Also, if I am going to make mistakes, at +> least I would learn more from my own mistakes. + +For existing code there are many ways to approach the problem and I +can't recommend any general approach. The main goal to keep in mind is +to speak to a broad audience who might need to do something with the +code. For instance, with the sequence prediction code, what is the idea? +What papers should be read? What subset of the problem is covered? Are +there boundary cases? Are there examples to try? How is the code +structured? Does it depend on a limit package? Does it work over floats? + +The approach I'm taking is to start from the code, find the related +theory, then understand and document from the theory to the code. +At that point I feel I know enough to critically examine the code. + +Any algebra author sufficiently clever and educated to write an algebra +package (e.g. JET), is bringing a LOT of background to the code. Writing +reasonable documentation without their help is a formidable challenge. +However if Axiom is going to survive and surpass the current state of +the art it is necessary to try. + +If the information is available it can easily be restructured into the +books, hyperdoc, help files, ++ comments, test files, and examples. + +The new )describe command currently shows working examples. That can be +enough for someone to start using the domains. The new )help command +will (eventually) pop into a browser worksheet with a series of +worked-out problems, explanations, and a live connection to the +interpreter so experiements can be done. + +New algebra authors really do need to spend the time and effort to +bring the quality of their documentation up to the quality of their +code. Writing down the ideas while writing the code is not particularly +challenging and, in fact, is very likely to improve the quality of the +code, based on feedback from those who tried. + +As Roboert Persig said in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", +it's all about quality. As Knuth said, it's all about communication. +Stealing from both, I say it is all about quality communication. + +Tim + + + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 11 15:39:47 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjZb9-00086e-H3 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:47 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40429) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjZb2-0007yO-SE + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:45 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjZax-0007E1-UP + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:40 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:44275 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjZax-0007Dx-Pa + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:35 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4BJdZFI017930 + for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 14:39:35 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id 27FA968921; Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:35 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:26 -0400 +Message-ID: <871tw0rtox.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by axiom-developer.org id + s4BJdZFI017930 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [m.kohlhase@jacobs-university.de: First Call for + Papers: 26. OpenMath Workshop (at CICM 2014; July 7. July 2014)] +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 19:39:45 -0000 + +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:31:32 +0200 +From: Michael Kohlhase +To: list +Subject: First Call for Papers: 26. OpenMath Workshop (at CICM 2014; July= + 7. July 2014)=20 +CC: Michael Kohlhase + +26th OpenMath Workshop +Coimbra, Portugal +July 7. 2014 +co-located with CICM 2014 +Submission deadline 7 June + +http://www.cicm-conference.org/2014/openmath/ + +OBJECTIVES + +OpenMath (http://www.openmath.org) is a language for exchanging +mathematical formulae across applications (such as computer algebra +systems). From 2010 its importance has increased in that OpenMath +Content Dictionaries were adopted as a foundation of the MathML 3 W3C +recommendation (http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML), the standard for +mathematical formulae on the Web. + +Topics we expect to see at the workshop include + + * Feature Requests (Standard Enhancement Proposals) and Discussions + for going beyond OpenMath 2; + * Further convergence of OpenMath and MathML 3; + * Reasoning with OpenMath; + * Software using or processing OpenMath; + * OpenMath on the Semantic Web; + * New OpenMath Content Dictionaries; + +Contributions can be either full research papers, Standard Enhancement +Proposals, or a description of new Content Dictionaries, particularly +ones that are suggested for formal adoption by the OpenMath Society. + +IMPORTANT DATES (all times are "anywhere on earth") + + * 7. June 2014: Submission + * 20. June 2014: Notification of acceptance or rejection + * 5. July 2014: Final revised papers due + * 7. July 2014: Workshop (Coimbra time) + +SUBMISSIONS + +Submission is via EasyChair (http://www.easychair.org/conferences?conf=3D= +om20131). =20 +Final papers must conform to the EasyChair LaTeX style. Initial submissi= +ons in this=20 +format are welcome but not mandatory but they should be in PDF and with= +in the=20 +given limit of pages/words. + +Submission categories: + + * Full paper: 5-10 EasyChair pages + * Short paper: 1-4 EasyChair pages + * CD description: 1-6 EasyChair pages; a .zip or .tgz file of the + CDs must be attached, or a link to the CD provided. + * Standard Enhancement Proposal: 1-10 EasyChair pages (as + appropriate w.r.t. the background knowledge required); a .zip or + .tgz file of any related implementation (e.g. a Relax NG schema) + should be attached. + +If not in EasyChair format, 500 words count as one page. + +PROCEEDINGS + +Electronic proceedings will be published with CEUR-WS.org. + +ORGANISATION COMMITTEE + + * James Davenport (University of Bath, UK) + * Michael Kohlhase (Jacobs University Bremen, Germany) + +PROGRAMME COMMITTEE + + * James Davenport (University of Bath, UK) + * Michael Kohlhase (Jacobs University Bremen, Germany) + * Christoph Lange (Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms-Universit=C3=A4t Bonn= +, Germany)=20 + * Lars Hellstr=C3=B6m (Ume=C3=A5 Universitet, Sweden) + * Jan Willem Knopper (Technische Universiteit Eindhoven, Netherlands) + * Paul Libbrecht (PH Weingarten) + * Chris Rowley (LaTeX3 Project and Open Math Society) + +Comments/questions/enquiries: to be sent to the organizers + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 11 16:33:40 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjaRI-0004TM-0Z + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:40 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48709) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjaR9-0004Pp-0w + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:38 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjaR1-0005Cf-Gm + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:30 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:43763 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjaR1-0005Cb-C9 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:23 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4BKXHFI018580; + Sun, 11 May 2014 15:33:17 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id 9704A6891D; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:17 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: Martin Baker , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Message-Id: <20140511203317.9704A6891D@u1204> +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:17 -0400 (EDT) +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 20:33:38 -0000 + +> So what should one do if one wants to modify parts of Axiom (or its +> forks) where all there is is the code? +> +> Should one: +> 1) Trace through the code and try to reverse engineer the documentation, +> then modify that. +> 2) Try to understand generally what it does (such as working out what +> the inputs and outputs are). Then rewrite it from scratch in a +> documentation led way. +> +> For me, in a lot of cases, I would prefer option 2. I would not claim to +> be as smart as the original authors, any algorithm that I would come up +> with might be less efficient and inferior in many respects. + +Martin, + +Given my mono-maniacal focus on documentation I think I may have +mis-read what you wrote. Let me try another interpretation. + +Are you asking "How do I modify existing code?". For new algebra that +I've written I've tried to provide documentation. But for existing +algebra I've been VERY relucant to change things, even where there +seems to be a better way. Fixing mistakes and extending the code +seem reasonable but changing the existing API? + +One key reason is "backward compatibility". The book and the test +cases document the language and algebra. Old code should continue to +work, otherwise we get into the "python 2.7 vs 3.3 debates". If the +old code doesn't work the system is, by definition, broken. + +Old code always has warts. Common Lisp has CAR which could easily +have been subsumed and removed by extending the definition of FIRST. +Pretty, but ... yeah, broken by definition. + +Another key reason is that the author of the code was likely an expert +in the area. Even experts make mistakes that need to be fixed but +wholesale rewrites seem rather drastic. A rewrite assumes a higher +level of expertise. Some of the Axiom code was written as PhD thesis +work so the bar is pretty high. + +That said, there may be valid reasons to modify or rewrite algebra. + +> However I +> would try to document it as well as I could and try to make it a better +> basis for future improvement. Also, if I am going to make mistakes, at +> least I would learn more from my own mistakes. + +Unless there is some overarching reason it is hard to see the need to +rewrite existing code. A new design that regularizes many domains +might make a good reason. A complete extension of the whole area, such +as a major matrix package might make DHMATRIX a useless subset. But +changing the API of an existing domain so that old code doesn't work +is, by definition, broken. + +Mistakes in the code will occur both in old code and in new code. +Unfortunately new mistakes are only likely to be uncovered by new +people using the new code... which by recursion on the motivation +to rewrite the code... leads to yet a different set of mistakes. + +Code doesn't rust. It doesn't "get old". Especially computational +mathematics code. Tearing down the cathedral because we now know +how to make stones that lasts longer seems ... I don't know ... +disrespectful of the genius of the original architects? + +Tim + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 11 17:48:12 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjbbQ-0003Ck-PS + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:48:12 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35394) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjbbK-0003BA-4a + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:48:11 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjbbF-0001LP-3N + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:48:06 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:39454 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjbbE-0001LG-UJ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:48:01 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4BLlwFI021631; + Sun, 11 May 2014 16:47:58 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4BLlvJk021628; + Sun, 11 May 2014 16:47:57 -0500 +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:47:57 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405112147.s4BLlvJk021628@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] ouch +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 21:48:11 -0000 + +The Low Quality of Scientific Code + +http://techblog.bozho.net/?p=1423 + +Tim + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 12 03:22:54 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjkZa-0004NY-10 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:22:54 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:32852) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjkZT-0004N9-1i + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:22:53 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjkZM-0002uT-Pa + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:22:46 -0400 +Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.130]:64423) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjkZM-0002uF-FT + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:22:40 -0400 +Received: from [192.168.1.64] (5ec027b4.skybroadband.com [94.192.39.180]) + by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreue007) with ESMTP (Nemesis) + id 0MM4YC-1WidZC2PeO-007iSG; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:22:38 +0200 +Message-ID: <53707692.60300@martinb.com> +Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:21:54 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +Organization: axiom +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <20140511203317.9704A6891D@u1204> +In-Reply-To: <20140511203317.9704A6891D@u1204> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:NgM7ilYCcMaEiOw0S2bCtwEfS4Br2AuayQuA2bjAXHc + n8YwcTTUzDQDc4lMxAunRNRd9qGRI7oPhAKGCmic7FYUnozLS2 + uqIwrSGOq5r8OZlgnk/LnWU3phyLM8gKqbVKxc+zvhgkpEJ8uT + i69/liodouHzcFnK4ZQY8R+K3kf4VRp0mTXc/IVRYzKSZoNiyr + GVp3hP5LNdG+y0b6aYIUmdJXHGHrSaTV/cohozlgEatnHj1/zd + MRM8dqR/84EGgu3tII2ct7DLDd2nNIPaML/ZlLhY7mEcusjWFJ + a/cMgaWawMAT0yv7NtfqrVCbbdoagE2HhXwsFhlz7GcgiuDHIV + cFBYq5PuOe56JS+vvVkqjF0H8xRGPucR7PVlH6KR1 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] +X-Received-From: 212.227.126.130 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 07:22:53 -0000 + +On 11/05/14 21:33, Tim Daly wrote: +> Unless there is some overarching reason it is hard to see the need to +> rewrite existing code. A new design that regularizes many domains +> might make a good reason. A complete extension of the whole area, such +> as a major matrix package might make DHMATRIX a useless subset. But +> changing the API of an existing domain so that old code doesn't work +> is, by definition, broken. +> +> Mistakes in the code will occur both in old code and in new code. +> Unfortunately new mistakes are only likely to be uncovered by new +> people using the new code... which by recursion on the motivation +> to rewrite the code... leads to yet a different set of mistakes. +> +> Code doesn't rust. It doesn't "get old". Especially computational +> mathematics code. Tearing down the cathedral because we now know +> how to make stones that lasts longer seems ... I don't know ... +> disrespectful of the genius of the original architects? + +One of the ideas I seem to be getting from the Robert Lefkowitz talks is +that most of the life-cycle of a piece of software is in maintenance +(i.e. change) and that is why this type of documentation is needed. It +seemed to me that a corollary of that is that, if the code does not need +to change, then documentation is not required. + +The thought also occurred to me that the wider axiom community has two +types of factions, those who want to change without documentation and +those who want to document without change. I don't mean this to be taken +seriously, its totally unfair of me to write down such an untrue +thought. I apologise unreservedly to people who are working very hard to +improve a program they believe in strongly. + +I agree about the genius of the original architects who were years ahead +of their time. I think more history should be made available to let more +people know about this. + +However I don't want to use, or work on, software that is a museum or +shrine to the genius of the original architects. I have convinced myself +that the sort of changes, that I would like, are driven by real needs to +support new mathematical structures and so on and not just a wish to +tweak the margins of the program for the sake of it. + +see my wish list: +http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/scratchpad/fricas/wishlist/ + +I think what you are hinting at is that the original scratchpad software +was written by a large number of brilliant people and I am a single, +humble individual who is very far from being a genius. I assure you, I +know that already. I really should set myself more realistic goals. + +It seems to me what Robert Lefkowitz is saying is that programs need to +change over time, and for that they need documentation and of course the +meaning of the word 'documentation' changes over time and everyone +understands the meaning of words differently. Mathematical truth may not +change over time, but the way that people use it, what is considered +important, notation and just about everything else does change. Perhaps +'documentation' does not mean what I think it means but, for me, its +about not freezing the program in time. + +Martin + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 12 06:11:00 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WjnCF-0001Bl-U3 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:10:59 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40128) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjnC6-00014u-Qn + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:10:55 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjnC0-0005Fh-I1 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:10:50 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:60310 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WjnC0-0005FU-9y + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:10:44 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4CAAdFI002291; + Mon, 12 May 2014 05:10:39 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4CAAd9G002288; + Mon, 12 May 2014 05:10:39 -0500 +Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 05:10:39 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405121010.s4CAAd9G002288@axiom-developer.org> +To: Martin Baker , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear.... +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 10:10:55 -0000 + +>> Unless there is some overarching reason it is hard to see the need to +>> rewrite existing code. A new design that regularizes many domains +>> might make a good reason. A complete extension of the whole area, such +>> as a major matrix package might make DHMATRIX a useless subset. But +>> changing the API of an existing domain so that old code doesn't work +>> is, by definition, broken. +>> +>> Mistakes in the code will occur both in old code and in new code. +>> Unfortunately new mistakes are only likely to be uncovered by new +>> people using the new code... which by recursion on the motivation +>> to rewrite the code... leads to yet a different set of mistakes. +>> +>> Code doesn't rust. It doesn't "get old". Especially computational +>> mathematics code. Tearing down the cathedral because we now know +>> how to make stones that lasts longer seems ... I don't know ... +>> disrespectful of the genius of the original architects? + +Perhaps my cathedral analogy was "over the top". That's partly because +I worked with people like Barry Trager, Manuel Bronstein, et.al. The +day-to-day contact made me realize how little I actually understand. +Naturally I am very careful when changing things, trying to understand +what exists before making changes. Google wouldn't let me change +their search algorithm without understanding it and the mathematics +of Axiom is much more complicated. + + + + +>One of the ideas I seem to be getting from the Robert Lefkowitz talks is +>that most of the life-cycle of a piece of software is in maintenance +>(i.e. change) and that is why this type of documentation is needed. It +>seemed to me that a corollary of that is that, if the code does not need +>to change, then documentation is not required. + +Axiom is clearly in need of maintenance in so many areas. At the very +minimum we have spent a good portion of the time dealing with low-level +issues like changing libraries, changing tools, and changing operating +systems. Fortunately we are nearing a key goal of a lisp-only platform +so Axiom will only need a working standards-based common lisp. The +build machinery is about to be swallowed and then the front end +hyperdoc work (already started) will be subsumed. + +Climbing beyond that level is the effort to document the huge library +of computational mathematics. The code needs to change to handle +the rest of the Risch algorithm, for instance. But what exists also +needs to be brought to a state where we know what is there, where it +is, and how to extend the missing parts. Manuel gave me permission to +use all of his writings to document the code... It just takes time. + +If Axiom was a 100 line program this would be trivial. At 1.2 million +lines it is going to take a while. + + + + +>The thought also occurred to me that the wider axiom community has two +>types of factions, those who want to change without documentation and +>those who want to document without change. I don't mean this to be taken +>seriously, its totally unfair of me to write down such an untrue +>thought. I apologise unreservedly to people who are working very hard to +>improve a program they believe in strongly. + +Well, that's not a bad way to characterize it. I'm re-working the +Axiom emails and I see many cases of changes proposed without even a +single line of comment. I also see a lot of pushback about the wisdom +of LP. So there is certainly a camp of "change without documentation". +There hasn't been a single, well documented pamphlet file submitted. +We're also watching LP die in the forks, leading to the "raw code" +approach. + +On the other hand, "documentation without change" seems to +characterize my position on things, mildly unfairly I think, but not +without merit. I have added algebra for predicting sequences, for +JET, for BLAS, for numeric functions, etc. The numeric code I wrote is +reasonably well documented. The JET code was done as well as I could +from available words. I'd also like to pick up Waldek's recent +integration work but I have no idea where to start, nor what references +to read to understand it, nor enough background to document it. So +Axiom is changing, slowly. + +I've asked several authors for permission to quote their papers, which +is an exception permitted by copyright for research purposes. All but +one have said yes. I have a whole directory of papers slated to be +added as documentation to the related domains. Each one is "expensive" +because I have to learn the relevant background to write readable +documentation and connect it to the domains but, hey, it's a 30 year +horizon project :-) + + + + +>I agree about the genius of the original architects who were years ahead +>of their time. I think more history should be made available to let more +>people know about this. + +>However I don't want to use, or work on, software that is a museum or +>shrine to the genius of the original architects. I have convinced myself +>that the sort of changes, that I would like, are driven by real needs to +>support new mathematical structures and so on and not just a wish to +>tweak the margins of the program for the sake of it. + +There seem to be two philosophical approaches to computational +mathematics. From one side there are the "programmers doing mathematics". +They follow the usual path of "write the code, read the code". They +are very liberal about the programs, moving from patch-to-patch, +changing things. They are fast and liberal, moving at the pace of +programmers everywhere. + +On the other side I see the "mathematicians doing programming". They +follow the usual "write the paper, bury the code". They are very +conservative about the math, moving theorem-to-theorem, proving each +step along the way. Change is slow and conservative, moving at the +pace of mathematicians everywhere. + +As a "computational mathematician" I'm trying to occupy the middle +ground where code gets written and it is intimately connected with the +paper and proof. There is no need to invent new mathematics as there +are whole landscapes of existing work that can be reduced to +programs. The ideas should stay with the code so future Axiom +developers can maintain and modify the mathematics in a disciplined +way. Indeed, a stated long term Axiom goal is to integrate with either +ACL2 or COQ to prove the algorithms in Axiom. I believe that properly +written literate programs are the best vehicle for all that. + +I have published an invited editorial in the Notices of the American +Mathematical Society, pushing for LP and Reproducible Research so +Axiom isn't the only place you'll see me moaning about this. I am +working with John Kitchin from Carnegie Mellon on an effort to teach +the next generation of students to write literate programs. The +hope is that the next generation of students will naturally document +their programs. John works in computational chemistry, which would +make an interesting extension area of Axiom (if I only had time...) + + + + + +>see my wish list: +>http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/scratchpad/fricas/wishlist/ + +I have research in Indefinites, Interval Arithmetic, and Provisos that +I really, really want to implement. I have done work in all three +areas. They would really extend Axiom's power. I want to do work in +Quantum Physics, with things like Hadamard gates, so I can implement +the quantum fourier transform algorithm. I've been working with Albert +Rich on the computer algebra test suite (CATS) using his 50,000 +integrals. I want to implement his techniques in Axiom to cover the +cases we miss now. + +Wish lists are long, days are short. + +Axiom is a "spare time" effort, not a career, so time is limited. I +miss the days when computational mathematics was supported financially. +This "nights and weekends" approach is painfully slow. In fact, without +the support of Gilbert Baumslag, Axiom's release might not have happened +at all. + + + + + + + +>I think what you are hinting at is that the original scratchpad software +>was written by a large number of brilliant people and I am a single, +>humble individual who is very far from being a genius. I assure you, I +>know that already. I really should set myself more realistic goals. + +There are truly brilliant people I've seen in the open source version +of Axiom. There is no shortage of brilliant people here. Waldek is +doing amazing work, for instance. Do not ever feel that I'm "hinting" +you're not. I'm not the one to judge, nor is my opinion worth the time +to consider. If you're doing computational mathematics at all, you're +already in the best of company. + +We need the brilliant among us to write stuff down for lesser mortals +like myself. It is wonderful to bring the gift of fire ... but could +you explain that trick with rubbing the sticks again? :-) + + + + + +>It seems to me what Robert Lefkowitz is saying is that programs need to +>change over time, and for that they need documentation and of course the +>meaning of the word 'documentation' changes over time and everyone +>understands the meaning of words differently. Mathematical truth may not +>change over time, but the way that people use it, what is considered +>important, notation and just about everything else does change. Perhaps +>'documentation' does not mean what I think it means but, for me, its +>about not freezing the program in time. + +Mathematics changes over time but very slowly. I've heavily quoted +from a 19th century treatise on quaternions in the Axiom documentation. +The words are still relevant. + +I don't want Axiom frozen. I want it brought to a state where it can +be maintained, modified, and extended without being a 1-in-a-million +programmer/mathematician/genius. Add new algebra, but document it. +Change old algebra, but document it first. Expose the thinking as +well as the code. Whatever gets written will IMMEDIATELY become a +maintenance task for the future. Communicate the ideas. + +Tim + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 13 09:14:21 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WkCXF-0002eK-Ko + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:14:21 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53769) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkCX7-0002Tk-Jj + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:14:19 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkCX1-0005rp-GZ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:14:13 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:49848 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkCX1-0005rO-CF + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:14:07 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4DDE0FI023628; + Tue, 13 May 2014 08:14:00 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4DDDxH0023623; + Tue, 13 May 2014 08:13:59 -0500 +Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:13:59 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405131313.s4DDDxH0023623@axiom-developer.org> +To: Helmut Jarausch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, Gabriel Dos Reis +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:14:19 -0000 + +Helmut, + +Please contact Gabriel Dos Reis, copied above, for help. + +The SBCL problem is not unusual. One of the hard parts of a +large project is the amount of time spent keeping up with +the many different ports to many platforms. + +You might consider trying it on a prior version of SBCL to +see if you can isolate the problem and give him a more +detailed bug report. The actual bug could have nothing to do +with either piece of software. + +Tim Daly + + + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 13 11:58:48 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WkF6N-00006G-Sp + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:47 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53932) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkAx9-00063I-Fi + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 07:33:07 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkAx1-0005X2-9g + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 07:32:59 -0400 +Received: from mx-out-1.rwth-aachen.de ([134.130.5.186]:45103) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkAx1-0005Wt-30 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 07:32:51 -0400 +X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1043,1389740400"; d="scan'208";a="283783994" +Received: from igpm.igpm.rwth-aachen.de ([134.130.161.1]) + by mx-1.rz.rwth-aachen.de with ESMTP; 13 May 2014 13:32:48 +0200 +Received: from numa-i.igpm.rwth-aachen.de ([134.130.161.252]) + by igpm.igpm.rwth-aachen.de with esmtp (Exim 4.72) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkAwy-0000Xp-45 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 13:32:48 +0200 +Received: from numa-i (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by numa-i.igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA0A2B40 + for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 13:32:50 +0200 (CEST) +Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:32:50 +0200 +From: Helmut Jarausch +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.13 +Message-Id: <1399980770.16024.2@numa-i> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed +Content-Disposition: inline +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not + recognized. +X-Received-From: 134.130.5.186 +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:45 -0400 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:33:07 -0000 + +Hi, + +I'm trying to build open-axiom-1.4.2 with SBCL-1.1.18. +It fails with strange memory errors like + +; compiling (DEFUN |bfOR| ...) +; compiling (DEFUN |bfAND| ...)CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid =20 +140737353516800): +Memory fault at 1878002f (pc=3D0x100099ca66, sp=3D0x7ffff6c8eaf8) +The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +Continuing with fingers crossed. +CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=3D0x10015259aa, sp=3D0x7ffff6c8e430) +The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +Continuing with fingers crossed. +CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=3D0x10015259aa, sp=3D0x7ffff6c8dbe0) +The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +Continuing with fingers crossed. + +debugger invoked on a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR in thread +#: + Unhandled memory fault at #x40200066. + +and so on. + +I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL. + +What is so special about Open-Axiom? + +Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing +memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here? + +Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ? + +Many thanks for some hints, +Helmut + +--=20 +Helmut Jarausch +Numer. Math. +RWTH-Aachen University +Germany= + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 13 13:34:37 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WkGb7-0004MS-DA + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:37 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46224) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkGaz-0004Cv-Q6 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:35 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkGat-0005r3-Cl + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:29 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:49359 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WkGat-0005qz-7q + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:23 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4DHYIFI024005; + Tue, 13 May 2014 12:34:18 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4DHYIWb024002; + Tue, 13 May 2014 12:34:18 -0500 +Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 12:34:18 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405131734.s4DHYIWb024002@axiom-developer.org> +To: Helmut Jarausch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 17:34:36 -0000 + +Helmut, + +You have the wrong mailing list. The names of the two projects +is a source of confusion. + +This is the mailing list for Axiom. Please contact Gaby. + +Tim Daly + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 18 02:44:33 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wlupl-0002yP-Qx + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:44:33 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50270) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wlupg-0002uM-7P + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:44:33 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wlupb-0007aS-A7 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:44:28 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:53054 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wlupb-0007aI-4X + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:44:23 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4I6iIFI026522; + Sun, 18 May 2014 01:44:18 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4I6iIpF026519; + Sun, 18 May 2014 01:44:18 -0500 +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 01:44:18 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405180644.s4I6iIpF026519@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: John Kitchin +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Axiom mentioned in an LP talk by Bart Childs +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 06:44:33 -0000 + +I've been listening to various talks about literate programming. Bart +Childs of Texas A&M University, presented a paper with a talk "Thirty +Years of Literate Programming and More?" and mentions Axiom at around +24:30 (actually, somebody named Nelson, I suspect Nelson Beebe, from +the audience talks about it at Bart's request). + +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsidc + +https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb31-2/tb98childs.pdf + +He had some interesting results from teaching using literate programming +in an undergraduate course. + +Tim Daly + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 18 03:42:05 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WlvjR-0000IF-5H + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:42:05 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54807) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WlvjI-0000H6-Ax + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:42:03 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WlvjA-0006MU-Ru + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:41:56 -0400 +Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.130]:62958) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WlvjA-0006MM-Ih + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:41:48 -0400 +Received: from [192.168.1.64] ([94.195.43.18]) + by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreue001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) + id 0LaOJ5-1XCAFx1E23-00mNjm; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:41:46 +0200 +Message-ID: <5378640C.5090707@martinb.com> +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 08:41:00 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +Organization: axiom +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <201405180644.s4I6iIpF026519@axiom-developer.org> +In-Reply-To: <201405180644.s4I6iIpF026519@axiom-developer.org> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:wIufwrC1+Kgm672EewDYq+sswvoyxYRbRpNcpYr/7pX + yPJIRxNTmBuioe3zKNarPB/yZvqcRCm1rhR1YE02aj5SNzXthm + U2mQuq0xAKGWKXZjwft18/yPSB/3NVAs0r2hlUBg3CA3eVPlNb + SfMJIeKyq5LrxQ1h0mlaqlOwxjFyX4Bc3whiQYx0WAYlLxvF8l + hy+ABDfCdLTvhZN3BBTwLePaRLtHcIfFUydMJtri7HdHXRpQ2y + PPQIEPZwZQOJe2Z/vZr/wx696hN1DrSoht7igZdxClA8ZTuuM/ + WkIWMKq93wjmz7FxWtlZtt1uUVXLceUKUVrqhad13bohaQ17PM + 8BqfUScVY8tWiI6zhWfo= +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] +X-Received-From: 212.227.126.130 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom mentioned in an LP talk by Bart Childs +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42:03 -0000 + +Tim, + +The link you gave: +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsidc +did not work on my computer, I think it should be: +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsldc + +Martin + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 18 10:42:37 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wm2IP-0006bL-F7 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:42:37 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38872) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm2IM-0006aw-Ao + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:42:35 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm2IL-0008B0-5A + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:42:34 -0400 +Received: from mail-we0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a]:61683) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm2IK-00088z-QP + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:42:33 -0400 +Received: by mail-we0-f170.google.com with SMTP id u57so4518983wes.1 + for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject + :from:to:cc:content-type; + bh=qprBzshHP/lc6JJ1WVPUMajwjAF8W7tXXxcfVgJFu48=; + b=b+1KJgTtRbxTnCtrT7wVChuGl4LRMgVIoPY9PKm0OHsT7QtPOaaFqZLDzOrhziREwo + aal41HPZlZIxm1t5iOHTJJYK834s0s8JWFtHDZljCZ4+YZaOYAnxiZWnv0g3qtinIc4K + 0KMzL/2TeSvmg5vcZzMvGeKOai5HKAV1zLO0cN+edCCjWtBpS3eZdZ7oaHzWdzPvYMjh + 8+bxGB3TeRrkcHnOmNInRaKYG6CXfzFIotph5Dcs5V+cilaejp9CxXh+c8XLDB5XFWsv + 5qDENv7tX47/MW3ZoCafG5Zgm+MV129p1UKV652FMhTCE0dusKtiRfGw+DwpMd8lGnYm + R6hg== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.180.106.194 with SMTP id gw2mr7980215wib.47.1400424151209; + Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT) +Sender: dosreis@gmail.com +Received: by 10.216.157.6 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <1399980770.16024.2@numa-i> +References: <1399980770.16024.2@numa-i> +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42:31 -0700 +X-Google-Sender-Auth: jDRC7rszcBjOSn7xeGhaSC_uKgY +Message-ID: +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: Helmut Jarausch +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3bab23115c2204f9ada82d +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a +Cc: axiom-dev , open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with + sbcl-1.1.18 +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 14:42:35 -0000 + +--e89a8f3bab23115c2204f9ada82d +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Helmut Jarausch < +jarausch@igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote: + +> Hi, +> +> I'm trying to build open-axiom-1.4.2 with SBCL-1.1.18. +> It fails with strange memory errors like +> +> ; compiling (DEFUN |bfOR| ...) +> ; compiling (DEFUN |bfAND| ...)CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid +> 140737353516800): +> Memory fault at 1878002f (pc=0x100099ca66, sp=0x7ffff6c8eaf8) +> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +> Continuing with fingers crossed. +> CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +> Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=0x10015259aa, sp=0x7ffff6c8e430) +> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +> Continuing with fingers crossed. +> CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +> Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=0x10015259aa, sp=0x7ffff6c8dbe0) +> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +> Continuing with fingers crossed. +> +> debugger invoked on a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR in thread +> #: +> Unhandled memory fault at #x40200066. +> +> and so on. +> +> I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL. +> +> What is so special about Open-Axiom? +> +> Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing +> memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here? +> +> Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ? +> +> Many thanks for some hints, +> Helmut + + +Helmut, + +Thanks for the report. Issues related to OpenAxiom should be reported to +OpenAxiom developers at + + open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net + open-axiom-bugs@lists.sf.net + +Are you by any chance building on Gentoo? It looks the same as this issue: + + +https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sbcl-help-archive/fTYViJjaotE/dsWMdRWPjJgJ + +-- Gaby + +--e89a8f3bab23115c2204f9ada82d +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +



On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Helmut Jarausch = +<jarau= +sch@igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
+
Hi,
+
+I'm trying to build open-axiom-1.4.2 with SBCL-1.1.18.
+It fails with strange memory errors like
+
+; compiling (DEFUN |bfOR| ...)
+; compiling (DEFUN |bfAND| ...)CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 1407= +37353516800):
+Memory fault at 1878002f (pc=3D0x100099ca66, sp=3D0x7ffff6c8eaf8)
+The integrity of this image is possibly compromised.
+Continuing with fingers crossed.
+CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800):
+Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=3D0x10015259aa, sp=3D0x7ffff6c8e430)
+The integrity of this image is possibly compromised.
+Continuing with fingers crossed.
+CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800):
+Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=3D0x10015259aa, sp=3D0x7ffff6c8dbe0)
+The integrity of this image is possibly compromised.
+Continuing with fingers crossed.
+
+debugger invoked on a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR in thread
+#<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1002E5E1F3}>:
+=C2=A0 Unhandled memory fault at #x40200066.
+
+and so on.
+
+I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL.
+
+What is so special about Open-Axiom?
+
+Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing
+memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here?
+
+Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ?
+
+Many thanks for some hints,
+Helmut

Helmut,

Tha= +nks for the report. =C2=A0Issues related to OpenAxiom =C2=A0should be repor= +ted to OpenAxiom developers at
=C2=A0
+

Are you by any chance bui= +lding on Gentoo? =C2=A0It looks the same as this issue:
+ +--e89a8f3bab23115c2204f9ada82d-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 18 10:46:04 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wm2Lk-0007FW-1q + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:46:04 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39507) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm2Lh-0007EP-Rx + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:46:02 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm2Lg-0000qc-Pj + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:46:01 -0400 +Received: from mail-we0-x235.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::235]:37165) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm2Lg-0000qU-JQ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:46:00 -0400 +Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id w61so4377807wes.40 + for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:45:59 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject + :from:to:cc:content-type; + bh=EDGW8BpkSmnCylAjDphKMxcsxyZhljf3jRX3LgVYSgU=; + b=UmpnjLxejarT3lm9d5W0RZv3sD67cKDfFjLmldw7KxI94Yz7d3ByWGaNHQgP+h8cxT + 98Hyp43UW5w82I9yMKV/W8YyeA3FI5VbC9I8uzkj0t6pmypQPWkuEeeZ3J1G0bFoxell + uuVG/RX1kcTNTPhd9oS0shkMVsmqQXQx4jFjL+N7gDZH+9IFpJFuyi25vq8/XH+UhrMj + u4eqUdg2Bze7hi/Onm58oECNK3JsRhN6Wfj5UNJl7SVk3B0iXKR9VyRbHZ7mXcJNkQXO + w1AO75mFjWHnzJWL6JlWt4FnaDqsJlP5KHuFBrkNT3oVQTahuBWB/JG7mIC4nFPfNFWM + GGyQ== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.180.211.239 with SMTP id nf15mr8023686wic.9.1400424359702; + Sun, 18 May 2014 07:45:59 -0700 (PDT) +Sender: dosreis@gmail.com +Received: by 10.216.157.6 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:45:59 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <1399980770.16024.2@numa-i> +References: <1399980770.16024.2@numa-i> +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:45:59 -0700 +X-Google-Sender-Auth: -jJ1QwV_3FGnp3gxNFD9emR5kaE +Message-ID: +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: Helmut Jarausch +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c264ec7eb9c204f9adb491 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c03::235 +Cc: axiom-dev , open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with + sbcl-1.1.18 +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 14:46:02 -0000 + +--001a11c264ec7eb9c204f9adb491 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Helmut Jarausch < +jarausch@igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote: + +> +> +> I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL. +> +> What is so special about Open-Axiom? +> +> Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing +> memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here? +> +> Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ? +> + +PS: I build OpenAxiom regularly with SBCL on openSUSE and Mac OS X. +I do not have access to a Gentoo box, so anyway that would help me +reproduce this would be most welcome. + +-- Gaby + +--001a11c264ec7eb9c204f9adb491 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +



On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Helmut Jarausch = +<jarau= +sch@igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
+

+
+I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL.
+
+What is so special about Open-Axiom?
+
+Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing
+memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here?
+
+Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ?

<= +/div>
PS: I build OpenAxiom regularly with SBCL on openSUSE and Mac OS = +X.
I do not have access to a Gentoo box, so anyway that would hel= +p me reproduce this would be most welcome.
+

-- Gaby=C2=A0
+ +--001a11c264ec7eb9c204f9adb491-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 18 13:13:00 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wm4dw-0004MA-Du + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 13:13:00 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57222) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm4dq-0004Lx-6C + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 13:12:59 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm4dl-0005j5-0c + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 13:12:54 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:46557 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wm4dk-0005j0-RJ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2014 13:12:48 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4IHCUFI012458; + Sun, 18 May 2014 12:12:30 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4IHCTdR012455; + Sun, 18 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405181712.s4IHCTdR012455@axiom-developer.org> +To: Helmut Jarausch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:12:59 -0000 + +Helmut, + +This problem is not related to Axiom. They are different projects. + +Please do not copy axiom-developer@nongnu.org on your mailings. + +Thank you. + +Tim Daly + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 19 04:08:12 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WmIcG-0007M4-J4 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:08:12 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55285) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmIc9-0007Ls-Ce + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:08:11 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmIc3-0005e6-8U + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:08:05 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:52293 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmIc3-0005e0-37 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:07:59 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4J87vFI012812; + Mon, 19 May 2014 03:07:57 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4J87vhp012809; + Mon, 19 May 2014 03:07:57 -0500 +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 03:07:57 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405190807.s4J87vhp012809@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 08:08:11 -0000 + +I had a debate about syntax highlighting of languages, an idea that +dates back to Ada, as near as I can determine. In Ada publications +it was traditional to highlight, by bold characters, all of the +keywords in the language. This notion continues today. + +Highlighting, and in particular bolding, is intended to draw attention +to things of interest. In normal prose one highlights portions of text +that are under discussion, items of controversy, or famous quotes. The +technique is a primary tool of communication. + +In computer languages, of which I have professionally coded in over 60, +it is usually used in the Ada tradition of highlighting syntax. + +Several objections can be raised. + +First, suppose we applied this to English. We could make the editor +bold the 19 basic prepositions (at, after, by, down, for, from, in, +of, on, over, past, round, since, through, till, to, under, up, with). +While syntactically correct it is, to say the least, distracting. + +This draws attention to these "keywords" in the sentence but, as a +native speaker of English, adds nothing worthwhile. In computer +languages this has the same effect. It is not at all useful to bold +keywords like IF, THEN, or ELSE. Any native speaker of the language +can see these at a glance. Bringing such "background" items to the +"foreground" of attention highlights the static, inverting the usual +use of the technique in communication. + +Even worse, some languages don't have "keywords" in the usual sense. +In Lisp it is entirely possible to use the symbol "if" in any number +of contexts, only one of which invokes its meaning as a conditional +statement. It is a complete waste of cycles to dynamically re-parse +text that a native speaker can read. + +Second, and worse, such highlighting undermines the most important +aspect of the technique, namely to draw the reader's attention to +something noteworthy. Bolding and other forms of highlighting are +textual means of emphasis in communication. Regular, repeated, and +non-communicative use removes this from the toolbox of the author. + +Third, and on a personal aside, one often encounters color-coded +program text in these highlighting schemes. As someone who is +partially color blind it is often impossible to see some characters at +all. It is usually possible to change these settings online but in +printed text whole passages are unreadable. Thus + + void foo(char *x) { + if (x > b) then c else d; + } + +in certain colors becomes + + foo( x) + (x b) c d + +which, I must say, certainly de-emphasizes the language syntax though +losing a bit in semantics. :-) + +So consider the difference between "coding for yourself" where your +editor highlights code in pretty rainbow colors and "coding or writing +for communication" where the techniques for directing the attention of +the audience matters. + +BE BOLD! may work for a wiki but not for communication. + +Tim Daly +The uncommunicative curmudgeon. + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 19 08:58:28 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WmN9A-00068R-BZ + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:28 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60464) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmN93-00067y-7t + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:26 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmN8y-00057m-Ar + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:21 -0400 +Received: from cgate.sci.ccny.cuny.edu ([134.74.34.100]:51808) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmN8y-00057e-7K + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:16 -0400 +Received: from [108.30.208.83] (account wyscc@sci.ccny.cuny.edu) + by cgate.sci.ccny.cuny.edu (CommuniGate Pro WebUser 4.2.10) + with HTTP id 30080942; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:56:06 -0400 +From: "William Sit" +To: daly@axiom-developer.org,axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.2.10 +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 08:56:06 -0400 +Message-ID: +In-Reply-To: <201405190807.s4J87vhp012809@axiom-developer.org> +References: <201405190807.s4J87vhp012809@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 +X-Received-From: 134.74.34.100 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:58:26 -0000 + +Dear Tim: + +Your reasoning is perfect for natural languages. For +computer languages, I do think there is a purpose for +certain highlighting of keywords and their associated +punctuations, particularly when the correct language +syntax frequently demands nested pairs of delimiters whose +scopes may be more than a few lines, and where structural +indentations may not be practical. Examples would be html, +Mathematica and TeX/LaTeX. Thus, the reason for +highlighting an IF-THEN-ELSE (as just one example) is not +because readers can't recognize those keywords, but +because readers may find it difficult to identify the +extents indicated by the hyphens in IF-THEN-ELSE. Such +highlighting benefits both the authors and the readers and +has its role for better syntactic communication. + +One should not compare or confuse the highlighting of, +say, prepositions in natural languages with scope defining +highlighting in programming languages. + +That said, it is not good programming practice to have +long scopes between paired delimiters, or for that matter, +deeply nested pairs of delimiters. + +I agree that those who choose color highlighting should +choose colors carefully. I would prefer background +coloring only and not text coloring, to avoid the precise +problems you illustrated. Text emphasis should be shown +using different typefaces, and in rare situations, a solid +color like red. + +William + +On Mon, 19 May 2014 03:07:57 -0500 + daly@axiom-developer.org wrote: +> I had a debate about syntax highlighting of languages, +>an idea that +> dates back to Ada, as near as I can determine. In Ada +>publications +> it was traditional to highlight, by bold characters, all +>of the +> keywords in the language. This notion continues today. +> +> Highlighting, and in particular bolding, is intended to +>draw attention +> to things of interest. In normal prose one highlights +>portions of text +> that are under discussion, items of controversy, or +>famous quotes. The +> technique is a primary tool of communication. +> +> In computer languages, of which I have professionally +>coded in over 60, +> it is usually used in the Ada tradition of highlighting +>syntax. +> +> Several objections can be raised. +> +>First, suppose we applied this to English. We could make +>the editor +> bold the 19 basic prepositions (at, after, by, down, +>for, from, in, +> of, on, over, past, round, since, through, till, to, +>under, up, with). +> While syntactically correct it is, to say the least, +>distracting. +> +> This draws attention to these "keywords" in the sentence +>but, as a +> native speaker of English, adds nothing worthwhile. In +>computer +> languages this has the same effect. It is not at all +>useful to bold +> keywords like IF, THEN, or ELSE. Any native speaker of +>the language +> can see these at a glance. Bringing such "background" +>items to the +> "foreground" of attention highlights the static, +>inverting the usual +> use of the technique in communication. +> +> Even worse, some languages don't have "keywords" in the +>usual sense. +> In Lisp it is entirely possible to use the symbol "if" +>in any number +> of contexts, only one of which invokes its meaning as a +>conditional +> statement. It is a complete waste of cycles to +>dynamically re-parse +> text that a native speaker can read. +> +> Second, and worse, such highlighting undermines the most +>important +> aspect of the technique, namely to draw the reader's +>attention to +> something noteworthy. Bolding and other forms of +>highlighting are +> textual means of emphasis in communication. Regular, +>repeated, and +> non-communicative use removes this from the toolbox of +>the author. +> +> Third, and on a personal aside, one often encounters +>color-coded +> program text in these highlighting schemes. As someone +>who is +> partially color blind it is often impossible to see some +>characters at +> all. It is usually possible to change these settings +>online but in +> printed text whole passages are unreadable. Thus +> +> void foo(char *x) { +> if (x > b) then c else d; +> } +> +> in certain colors becomes +> +> foo( x) +> (x b) c d +> +> which, I must say, certainly de-emphasizes the language +>syntax though +> losing a bit in semantics. :-) +> +> So consider the difference between "coding for yourself" +>where your +> editor highlights code in pretty rainbow colors and +>"coding or writing +> for communication" where the techniques for directing +>the attention of +> the audience matters. +> +> BE BOLD! may work for a wiki but not for communication. +> +> Tim Daly +> The uncommunicative curmudgeon. +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer + +William Sit, Professor Emeritus +Mathematics, City College of New York +Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 +Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 19 10:32:32 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WmOcC-0003El-9y + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:32:32 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56368) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmOc5-000339-LI + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:32:31 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmObz-0007yo-Ib + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:32:25 -0400 +Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9]:52382) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmObz-0007xW-04 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:32:19 -0400 +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1400509935; l=695; + s=domk; d=hemmecke.org; + h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References: + Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; + bh=RnnlcTC/3HC1l9xXx8QllKlsh6A=; + b=amXhJgw89y7lEL9RQyI+sOHlPg5Jn6rFBscJzs2/fS0t6Mu+300HCwAZf1UgyztR1y0 + M6gyfH0zx3mwV/9gJehpq7iKDH2KzBjUX3SEUM4IQuiZXRohLAHVG/iFjrLoeCIQFfXiB + DDhx/jj6g3thcx1HSybJS8XT8q5flwinrnM= +X-RZG-AUTH: :Pm0Ic2CgfvKqpyys4bXs6bamDO4KmmoRsZ13hlmoEk5ZaFQhic5buILDsRMJ +X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 +Received: from [192.168.1.2] (91-115-107-7.adsl.highway.telekom.at + [91.115.107.7]) by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 34.2 DYNA|AUTH) + with ESMTPSA id 60088aq4JEQGB7H + (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) + (Client did not present a certificate) + for ; + Mon, 19 May 2014 16:26:16 +0200 (CEST) +Message-ID: <537A1487.5000101@hemmecke.org> +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:26:15 +0200 +From: Ralf Hemmecke +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <201405190807.s4J87vhp012809@axiom-developer.org> + +In-Reply-To: +X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 14:32:31 -0000 + +> I agree that those who choose color highlighting should choose colors +> carefully. I would prefer background coloring only and not text +> coloring, to avoid the precise problems you illustrated. Text emphasis +> should be shown using different typefaces, and in rare situations, a +> solid color like red. + +We are no longer in the early days of computers. +And we are dealing with open source. + +I think that it's nowadays totally easy to separate style elements from +the content and let the *reader* decide what style he/she wants. In +LaTeX we have .sty files, for HTML there is .css etc. etc. + +The only issue is if the reader has no choice than to read badly styled +text. + +Ralf + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 19 15:06:37 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WmStR-0002WH-OX + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:06:37 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33487) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmStL-0002W3-Nu + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:06:36 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmStF-0008Jx-DP + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:06:31 -0400 +Received: from cgate.sci.ccny.cuny.edu ([134.74.34.100]:53365) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmStF-0008Jt-9s + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:06:25 -0400 +Received: from [108.30.208.83] (account wyscc@sci.ccny.cuny.edu) + by cgate.sci.ccny.cuny.edu (CommuniGate Pro WebUser 4.2.10) + with HTTP id 30085078; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:04:15 -0400 +From: "William Sit" +To: Ralf Hemmecke ,axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.2.10 +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:04:15 -0400 +Message-ID: +In-Reply-To: <537A1487.5000101@hemmecke.org> +References: <201405190807.s4J87vhp012809@axiom-developer.org> + + <537A1487.5000101@hemmecke.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 +X-Received-From: 134.74.34.100 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 19:06:36 -0000 + +Hi Ralf: + +I don't think Tim is talking about the "product" (such as +a compiled pdf from LaTeX, or a rendered html web page), +but about the source files. The style in a publication is +rightly the choice of the author, as a personal artistic +preference. While it is possible (I won't say "easy") to +change the style of a published work (as a web page, by +changing css file), I doubt a reader would waste time if +the reader finds the rendition really subjectively +offending. The work will most likely be ignored. But that +is not an issue: the author most likely just wanted to +appeal to "flocks of the same feather" and used the style +as a filter. + +If the source (ASCII text with markups) is the product, +then I agree with you. By using a different editor, one +can change the style or even make it plain text with +relative ease (say cut and paste to Notepad). The main +issue in that case is the ubiquitous LF/CR problem. + +William + +On Mon, 19 May 2014 16:26:15 +0200 + Ralf Hemmecke wrote: +>> I agree that those who choose color highlighting should +>>choose colors +>> carefully. I would prefer background coloring only and +>>not text +>> coloring, to avoid the precise problems you illustrated. +>>Text emphasis +>> should be shown using different typefaces, and in rare +>>situations, a +>> solid color like red. +> +> We are no longer in the early days of computers. +> And we are dealing with open source. +> +> I think that it's nowadays totally easy to separate +>style elements from +> the content and let the *reader* decide what style +>he/she wants. In +> LaTeX we have .sty files, for HTML there is .css etc. +>etc. +> +> The only issue is if the reader has no choice than to +>read badly styled +> text. +> +> Ralf +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer + +William Sit, Professor Emeritus +Mathematics, City College of New York +Office: R6/291D Tel: 212-650-5179 +Home Page: http://scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~wyscc/ + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 20 16:40:41 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wmqq1-0001qH-N0 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 16:40:41 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38267) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmmLv-00040E-84 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:53:20 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmmLr-0006OE-25 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:53:19 -0400 +Received: from mail-we0-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d]:54194) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmmLq-0006Nf-S3 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:53:15 -0400 +Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id u57so733110wes.4 + for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 08:53:13 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject + :from:to:cc:content-type; + bh=KPkEMVajWTSPfA44IM4gX4oUmvnn0bXwdJ1HfCwSR6w=; + b=yuafcjGQb0Znc2b3Xbxyt6X9dgsb4SAyGYhYzyUVKgZdKiXL/4Pms1ndzoK7mDe7cI + VM8b9tvgJCzugUic00A2XqcgaQlN9ZGHpSZC2IDRU5sUpE4E1/8LeyM1KRI1tqZHX+M3 + 8lT6y0JBApuo1vU42DMaF1vTCe63ygK8Gr02C19HrGRALeHYgSXyvRAbrFwiUj3HlTZk + flPnhFwIDr4HqaCs33xbqR4wFt55//KZwKD8V22CGFz6jfKXHop0ty8aZNjs0jw4Uc01 + /44nUPuzrFiES9UOINA0lFhvF6MxqUyWsoqqA1oSJ4Auqe3jNj6gkebtbv8M/NHHbla2 + wmCw== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.194.243.3 with SMTP id wu3mr37996659wjc.29.1400601193177; + Tue, 20 May 2014 08:53:13 -0700 (PDT) +Sender: johnrkitchin@gmail.com +Received: by 10.216.152.193 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 08:53:13 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <201405180644.s4I6iIpF026519@axiom-developer.org> +References: <201405180644.s4I6iIpF026519@axiom-developer.org> +Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 11:53:13 -0400 +X-Google-Sender-Auth: ocCblJG9v-yMKh6l3ZIx4QR8aRA +Message-ID: +From: John Kitchin +To: Tim Daly +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d14c49769bb04f9d6e09c +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 May 2014 16:40:40 -0400 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom mentioned in an LP talk by Bart Childs +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 15:53:20 -0000 + +--089e013d14c49769bb04f9d6e09c +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +Thanks. I recently wrote probably my first serious attempt at a literate +program in org-mode to insert and format references in technical documents! + +John + +----------------------------------- +John Kitchin +Associate Professor +Doherty Hall A207F +Department of Chemical Engineering +Carnegie Mellon University +Pittsburgh, PA 15213 +412-268-7803 +http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu + + + +On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:44 AM, wrote: + +> I've been listening to various talks about literate programming. Bart +> Childs of Texas A&M University, presented a paper with a talk "Thirty +> Years of Literate Programming and More?" and mentions Axiom at around +> 24:30 (actually, somebody named Nelson, I suspect Nelson Beebe, from +> the audience talks about it at Bart's request). +> +> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsidc +> +> https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb31-2/tb98childs.pdf +> +> He had some interesting results from teaching using literate programming +> in an undergraduate course. +> +> Tim Daly +> +> + +--089e013d14c49769bb04f9d6e09c +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
Thanks. I recently wrote probably my first serious attempt= + at a literate program in org-mode to insert and format references in techn= +ical documents!

= +John
+
-----------------------------------
John Kitchin
Associate Profes= +sor
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie= + Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
http://kitchingroup.chem= +e.cmu.edu
+
+

On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:44 AM, <daly@axiom-developer.org> wrote:
+I've been listening to various talks about literate programming. =C2=A0= +Bart
+Childs of Texas A&M University, presented a paper with a talk "Thi= +rty
+Years of Literate Programming and More?" and mentions Axiom at around<= +br> +24:30 (actually, somebody named Nelson, I suspect Nelson Beebe, from
+the audience talks about it at Bart's request).
+
+= +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD1cKI2jsidc
+
+https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb31-2/tb98childs.pdf
+
+He had some interesting results from teaching using literate programming +in an undergraduate course.
+
+Tim Daly
+
+

+ +--089e013d14c49769bb04f9d6e09c-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 20 17:14:21 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WmrMb-00020T-DD + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 17:14:21 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54964) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmrMV-0001yr-7Y + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 17:14:19 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmrMQ-0006Sw-FB + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 17:14:15 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:53659 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WmrMQ-0006Sq-A5 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 17:14:10 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4KKJsFI020416; + Tue, 20 May 2014 15:19:54 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4KKJsDJ020413; + Tue, 20 May 2014 15:19:54 -0500 +Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 15:19:54 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405202019.s4KKJsDJ020413@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] documentation +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 21:14:20 -0000 + +An interesting blog post by Yevgenly Brikman + +"You are what you document" + +http://brikis98.blogspot.com.tr/2014/05/you-are-what-you-document.html?spref=tw + +Tim Daly + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 20 18:40:32 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wmshz-00029r-ST + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:40:32 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46692) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wmshr-00028c-MA + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:40:29 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wmshl-0003G8-Hm + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:40:23 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:52667 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wmshl-0003G3-CA + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:40:17 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4KMeGFI022359; + Tue, 20 May 2014 17:40:16 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4KMeGbK022356; + Tue, 20 May 2014 17:40:16 -0500 +Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 17:40:16 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405202240.s4KMeGbK022356@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Nelson Beebe quote +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 22:40:30 -0000 + +I transcribed Nelson's quote from the Tug meeting, for those of you +who missed his comment. + +Nelson said: + +=========================================================== + +I come from a mathematics department and many mathematicians, +particularly those in pure math, have a strong distrust of computers +and they are really not inclined to accept computer-based proofs, +although there have been some dramatic examples of those in the last +two or three decades. + +In the early 1970s, researchers at IBM developed a symbolic algebra +system called Scratchpad and this went on inside IBM for many years. +There were lots of papers written about it. It ultimately got renamed +to Axiom and was sold by NAG, the Numerical Algorithms Group in +England, for a few years. And then it disappeared from the market and +became unavailable. + +People worried about this for probably about 5 years but finally NAG +was able to release it and a major decision has been taken. Axiom is +being completely reimplemented as a literate program. And the reason +is, is that software outlives hardware, and often its own authors. The +author of Scratchpad died about 5 years ago. + +So they feel the only way that this system can survive and be used by +future generations is to be written as a literate program so that the +reason behind the program is embedded there as part of the description +of the code. I think this is really important and could be really +quite significant for the future growth of computing and mathematics. + +=========================================================== + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 21 07:03:21 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wn4Ir-0001DD-LW + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:03:21 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57026) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wn4Il-0001Cy-1N + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:03:20 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wn4If-0000dn-V4 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:03:14 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:37235 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wn4If-0000dQ-QK + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:03:09 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4LB34FI024758; + Wed, 21 May 2014 06:03:04 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4LB34fT024755; + Wed, 21 May 2014 06:03:04 -0500 +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 06:03:04 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405211103.s4LB34fT024755@axiom-developer.org> +To: clojure@googlegroups.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:03:20 -0000 + +The primary focus of a "documentation system" is communication from +the author to the audience. + +One of the struggles apparent in discussing issues of communication, +especially with programmers, is Heideggers "present-at-hand" vs +"breaking down". + +Programmers write programs to instruct a machine to perform some +task. In the ideal, this involves "communication" from the mind of +the programmer to the "execution of the program". If the program works +the first time it is all a seamless entity ("present-at-hand"). + +When the program fails, by compiler errors, missing libraries, runtime +errors, design errors, inappropriate actions, or any of the other dragons +of programming, the process is not seamless. The details of the process +rise to our awareness ("breaking down"). The burden of failure is likely +to fall on people who use or maintain the program rather than the authors. +If the program survives, these are likely audiences. + + + +Programmers, generalizing from my own case, rarely have a seamless +experience. Programs that work the first time, are correct, efficient, +and all of the other properties, are rather far outside our experience. + +The effect of this constant "breaking down" is that we have learned, +rather painfully, to be aware of the machinery of the process at every +step of the way. This focus on the machinery becomes the expected way +of communicating with the machine. Scratch any programmer, interview at +any company, listen to any talk, and you find "machinery". + +But communication from the author to the audience is the underlying +theme of literate programming. Knuth's point is about communication, +not about the machinery of communication. The question is, to what +audience, not how. + + + +Discussions seem to get lost in a debate about the machinery rather +than the goal. We focus our debate on docstrings versus markup versus +wiki. We consider literate programming to be "too much machinery". + +In these forums there is rarely find any example of "present-at-hand" +issues of communication. That is, given a large program (e.g. Axiom, +Clojure), what is it that we need to communicate, to what audience, +and at what level of detail? + +Axiom focuses on "The 30 year horizon" under the assumption that the +computational mathematics will be forever valid and that the audience +will be unable to contact the likely-dead authors. + +Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Base Rendering" [0] is written as a +literate program, a book that won an Academy Award, using Tex and +C++. The very first thing they mention in the preface is the +"Audience". They communicate to humans and, also, to machines. + +What is the audience for Clojure? + +Common Lisp has achieved a long-term horizon by raising the language +to a standard. No standard is perfect but it does make it possible to +construct programs which have a stable base for communication. That +base makes it possible to write a book like "Lisp in Small Pieces" [1] +which communicates ideas in natural language using an embedded program +as a reduction to practice. + + + +So the fundamental point is what to communicate to what audience, +not how to implement it. Different audiences will need different +implementations (e.g. docstrings for REPL users) but we must avoid +losing ourselves in the noise. + +Axiom, by choice, has a defined audience. Does Clojure? + +Tim Daly +daly@axiom-developer.org + +[0] Pharr, Matt; Humphreys, Greg + Physically Based Rendering + ISBN 978-0-12-375079-2 +[1] Queinnec, Christian + Lisp in Small Pieces + ISBN 978-0521545662 + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 21 20:08:13 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnGYP-0002t2-Ex + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 20:08:13 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33698) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnDsK-0001uh-Bb + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:16:42 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnDsD-0005nL-OL + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:16:36 -0400 +Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:49893) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnDsD-0005mr-Jk + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:16:29 -0400 +Received: by mail-qc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id w7so624618qcr.26 + for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 14:16:26 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject + :mime-version:content-type; + bh=73vIrFiVLv/tASIp8SGX80QlPuAn6i8UTP1WE7eL4zs=; + b=Z1r6bSZQ3A04bWuB/Yp9/Gwva0X/3CLt4V1C5t1Rr8EXe+aF2FT6fuNnyANWNMKBtk + of14odlXamOpv81fiSAU6yiQD7wsGw+KjLEEbxE22uZpK16ULJMRNdpPzd3E05yOt63u + VES+l2P8oZrbNbNgFg7Mr0se9TYu0mm8PABPYIzsXVXrfrv6JEHUm7UaV2aVLgeP69V1 + eeMXj0Q3Telbd852Affkv9UK3gHZssssyeXGcv+KPR83oGFYJPq71Z/ssA2EH4NIyqWP + VYVo/UqpWxPn5Sgsiy47Ro/4gqAWSyIZ7lSngDbuYeFufbfNKOTptdwPlyQdRx0/1nZI + w4uA== +X-Received: by 10.140.44.75 with SMTP id f69mr109538qga.11.1400706986265; + Wed, 21 May 2014 14:16:26 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-Doc-Id: 1117a02a9029d81d +X-Google-Web-Client: true +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:16:25 -0700 (PDT) +From: Mars0i +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Message-Id: +In-Reply-To: <201405211103.s4LB34fT024755@axiom-developer.org> +References: <201405211103.s4LB34fT024755@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: multipart/mixed; + boundary="----=_Part_509_17370795.1400706985964" +X-Google-Token: EKmv9JsFinPrfzJ8kEU0 +X-Google-IP: 71.45.21.204 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 209.85.216.189 +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:08:12 -0400 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:16:42 -0000 + +------=_Part_509_17370795.1400706985964 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="----=_Part_510_27394088.1400706985964" + +------=_Part_510_27394088.1400706985964 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + + + +On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:03:04 AM UTC-5, da...@axiom-developer.org +wrote: +> +> The primary focus of a "documentation system" is communication from +> the author to the audience. +> +> One of the struggles apparent in discussing issues of communication, +> especially with programmers, is Heideggers "present-at-hand" vs +> "breaking down". +> +> Programmers write programs to instruct a machine to perform some +> task. In the ideal, this involves "communication" from the mind of +> the programmer to the "execution of the program". If the program works +> the first time it is all a seamless entity ("present-at-hand"). +> +> When the program fails, by compiler errors, missing libraries, runtime +> errors, design errors, inappropriate actions, or any of the other dragons +> of programming, the process is not seamless. The details of the process +> rise to our awareness ("breaking down"). The burden of failure is likely +> to fall on people who use or maintain the program rather than the authors. +> If the program survives, these are likely audiences. +> +> +> +> Programmers, generalizing from my own case, rarely have a seamless +> experience. Programs that work the first time, are correct, efficient, +> and all of the other properties, are rather far outside our experience. +> +> The effect of this constant "breaking down" is that we have learned, +> rather painfully, to be aware of the machinery of the process at every +> step of the way. This focus on the machinery becomes the expected way +> of communicating with the machine. Scratch any programmer, interview at +> any company, listen to any talk, and you find "machinery". +> +> But communication from the author to the audience is the underlying +> theme of literate programming. Knuth's point is about communication, +> not about the machinery of communication. The question is, to what +> audience, not how. +> +> +> +> Discussions seem to get lost in a debate about the machinery rather +> than the goal. We focus our debate on docstrings versus markup versus +> wiki. We consider literate programming to be "too much machinery". +> +> In these forums there is rarely find any example of "present-at-hand" +> issues of communication. That is, given a large program (e.g. Axiom, +> Clojure), what is it that we need to communicate, to what audience, +> and at what level of detail? +> +> Axiom focuses on "The 30 year horizon" under the assumption that the +> computational mathematics will be forever valid and that the audience +> will be unable to contact the likely-dead authors. +> +> Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Base Rendering" [0] is written as a +> literate program, a book that won an Academy Award, using Tex and +> C++. The very first thing they mention in the preface is the +> "Audience". They communicate to humans and, also, to machines. +> +> What is the audience for Clojure? +> +> Common Lisp has achieved a long-term horizon by raising the language +> to a standard. No standard is perfect but it does make it possible to +> construct programs which have a stable base for communication. That +> base makes it possible to write a book like "Lisp in Small Pieces" [1] +> which communicates ideas in natural language using an embedded program +> as a reduction to practice. +> +> +> +> So the fundamental point is what to communicate to what audience, +> not how to implement it. Different audiences will need different +> implementations (e.g. docstrings for REPL users) but we must avoid +> losing ourselves in the noise. +> +> Axiom, by choice, has a defined audience. Does Clojure? +> +> Tim Daly +> da...@axiom-developer.org +> +> [0] Pharr, Matt; Humphreys, Greg +> Physically Based Rendering +> ISBN 978-0-12-375079-2 +> [1] Queinnec, Christian +> Lisp in Small Pieces +> ISBN 978-0521545662 +> + +------=_Part_510_27394088.1400706985964 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:03:04 AM UTC-5, da...@axiom-developer.org wrote:
The primary focus of a "documentation system" is communication from +
the author to the audience. +
+
One of the struggles apparent in discussing issues of communication, +
especially with programmers, is Heideggers "present-at-hand" vs +
"breaking down". +
+
Programmers write programs to instruct a machine to perform some +
task. In the ideal, this involves "communication" from the mind of +
the programmer to the "execution of the program". If the program works +
the first time it is all a seamless entity ("present-at-hand"). +
+
When the program fails, by compiler errors, missing libraries, runtime +
errors, design errors, inappropriate actions, or any of the other dragons +
of programming, the process is not seamless. The details of the process +
rise to our awareness ("breaking down"). The burden of failure is likely +
to fall on people who use or maintain the program rather than the authors. +
If the program survives, these are likely audiences. +
+
+
+
Programmers, generalizing from my own case, rarely have a seamless +
experience.  Programs that work the first time, are correct, efficient, +
and all of the other properties, are rather far outside our experience. +
+
The effect of this constant "breaking down" is that we have learned, +
rather painfully, to be aware of the machinery of the process at every +
step of the way. This focus on the machinery becomes the expected way +
of communicating with the machine. Scratch any programmer, interview at +
any company, listen to any talk, and you find "machinery". +
+
But communication from the author to the audience is the underlying +
theme of literate programming. Knuth's point is about communication, +
not about the machinery of communication. The question is, to what +
audience, not how. +
+
+
+
Discussions seem to get lost in a debate about the machinery rather +
than the goal. We focus our debate on docstrings versus markup versus +
wiki. We consider literate programming to be "too much machinery". +
+
In these forums there is rarely find any example of "present-at-hand" +
issues of communication.  That is, given a large program (e.g. Axiom, +
Clojure), what is it that we need to communicate, to what audience, +
and at what level of detail? +
+
Axiom focuses on "The 30 year horizon" under the assumption that the +
computational mathematics will be forever valid and that the audience +
will be unable to contact the likely-dead authors. +
+
Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Base Rendering" [0] is written as a +
literate program, a book that won an Academy Award, using Tex and +
C++. The very first thing they mention in the preface is the +
"Audience". They communicate to humans and, also, to machines. +
+
What is the audience for Clojure? +
+
Common Lisp has achieved a long-term horizon by raising the language +
to a standard. No standard is perfect but it does make it possible to +
construct programs which have a stable base for communication. That +
base makes it possible to write a book like "Lisp in Small Pieces" [1] +
which communicates ideas in natural language using an embedded program +
as a reduction to practice. +
+
+
+
So the fundamental point is what to communicate to what audience, +
not how to implement it. Different audiences will need different +
implementations (e.g. docstrings for REPL users) but we must avoid +
losing ourselves in the noise. +
+
Axiom, by choice, has a defined audience. Does Clojure? +
+
Tim Daly +
da...@axiom-developer.org +
+
[0] Pharr, Matt; Humphreys, Greg +
    Physically Based Rendering +
    ISBN 978-0-12-375079-2 +
[1] Queinnec, Christian +
    Lisp in Small Pieces +
    ISBN 978-0521545662 +
+------=_Part_510_27394088.1400706985964-- + +------=_Part_509_17370795.1400706985964-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 21 20:08:14 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnGYQ-0002ug-IY + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 20:08:14 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37449) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnEEC-0006J7-2u + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:39:18 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnEE5-0003rS-Sd + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:39:12 -0400 +Received: from mail-ie0-f186.google.com ([209.85.223.186]:63014) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnEE5-0003rK-Ml + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:39:05 -0400 +Received: by mail-ie0-f186.google.com with SMTP id as1so651248iec.3 + for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject + :mime-version:content-type; + bh=0ozuLviH33nKrsi039trmUoObJngzN2fiGJurD4fQnQ=; + b=Vrvx/0nKieOV2gZFkVsD67/LupEwuejKakwjab/yWQBvnBfcYncdygbf1yVWpFDsmH + POziLEmmRTsAyJi6iDtS/ms2+17BaW6zCIN5bF4WV+Y/olUBf24M7yx0gSmduc/ONr3h + FrNjnKRO/e52cxY+a7FgMwJv9YVQm5sM7NgbiIVprY3tvl5xZXhfLnmznmUa9sECiRiR + J8ozAZI43+HIMsuszt+S11VMeFF+KiJDE1LKbqnJ5uX2kf+dYMDZubJZfywv7Fm6sRjc + mY77Gt8fA3Sp5DIghWfDbREpoeQLjzgw+EUeDhVtnFnbbiTVelWUwtnY+4tQIKTmxMwK + yauA== +X-Received: by 10.140.27.40 with SMTP id 37mr64808qgw.24.1400708344324; + Wed, 21 May 2014 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-Doc-Id: 8d8b5e334a84ea10 +X-Google-Web-Client: true +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:39:03 -0700 (PDT) +From: Mars0i +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Message-Id: +In-Reply-To: <201405211103.s4LB34fT024755@axiom-developer.org> +References: <201405211103.s4LB34fT024755@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: multipart/mixed; + boundary="----=_Part_2382_26199928.1400708343793" +X-Google-Token: EPe59JsFivYDHbtV6uE0 +X-Google-IP: 71.45.21.204 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 209.85.223.186 +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:08:13 -0400 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:39:18 -0000 + +------=_Part_2382_26199928.1400708343793 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="----=_Part_2383_7393408.1400708343793" + +------=_Part_2383_7393408.1400708343793 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +Tim, + +>From my point of view there are at least a few things that seem clear: + +1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to his +remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, as +well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) + +2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure source code has no +single kind of human audience for the code. + +In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, +depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the +code, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to +interface with it, for example. Further, I think about the skill levels +and background of those who will read the code. And I think about what +they would want to do with it. And then I make decisions that involve +tradeoffs between competing desiderata. + +3. There is a tradeoff between the desire to see a lot of code at once, +without a lot of text cluttering it up, and understanding what the code is +doing. Comments hurt the former but can help the latter. The same thing +goes for literate programming, but--it depends on your goals and your human +audience. + +4. Two examples to convey the context-dependence of appropriate +configuration schemes: + +A. One time I wrote a small but slightly complex bit of code (in Perl, not +Clojure). I could see that it would be confusing, if someone just started +reading the code at an arbitrary place. But I also knew the ability of the +other programmers I worked with, and I knew that if they started reading at +one particular function, they would be able to figure out most of the +rest. I provided text that explained what they wouldn't be able to figure +out. About six months after I left the company, one of the programmers +contacted me and asked me to explain the program; he had to make a +modification. I told him to look at such and such document, which mainly +said "Start reading the code at such and such point, and understand these +few other things." He did, and that was all he needed. If I wrote more +documentation, I would only be duplicating the information that was already +there in the source code, and that would be apparent for the kind of people +who would read it. In fact, if I provided *more* documentation, I doubt +that the other programmers would have read it. They would have just looked +at the source. + +B. Another example. + +I generally don't like the idea of LP. That is to say, I like the idea of +people who want to be able to use it, using it, but I don't want to use it, +usually. And the reason that I don't want to use it is not simply that I +don't want to bother writing it. It's that I want the ability to use +simple tools and I want to have relatively uncluttered source code. (I +could use LP and have uncluttered source much of the time, but only by +using special tools.) + +In my current main project, there is source code that implements the +central functionality of the application, and there are rather complex +configuration files. I write documents to describe the central +functionality source code, so that someone who wants to hack on it will +know where to start and where to look. I have to trust that they will know +or will be willing to learn Clojure, because otherwise I'd have to explain +too much. + +However, the configuration files should be modifiable by people who won't +understand the guts of the program, and yet, they are in Clojure, and would +be pretty unintelligible to someone who merely understood in general what +the program was supposed to do. (I may create a DSL for the config files, +but all that will do will be to get rid of a few parentheses. The +information in the config files won't be expressed significantly more +succinctly.) + +For the first time I'm thinking of using LP. It would be perfect for the +config files, and in fact, any other way of documenting the config files +will probably be inadequate. Interspersing explanations with the +configuration code is precisely what's needed. + +------=_Part_2383_7393408.1400708343793 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
Tim,

From my point of view there are at least a few= + things that seem clear:

1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree = +on a lot, but I would add to his remarks that there is almost always a huma= +n audience for source code, as well as the compiler/interpreter.  Some= +times, the audience is just the originally programmer, perhaps at a later d= +ate.  (If I missed something, Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disa= +gree, anyway.)

2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure s= +ource code has no single kind of human audience for the code. 
In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, = +depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the cod= +e, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to interface= + with it, for example.  Further, I think about the skill levels and ba= +ckground of those who will read the code.  And I think about what they= + would want to do with it.  And then I make decisions that involve tra= +deoffs between competing desiderata.

3. There is a tradeoff between = +the desire to see a lot of code at once, without a lot of text cluttering i= +t up, and understanding what the code is doing.  Comments hurt the for= +mer but can help the latter.  The same thing goes for literate program= +ming, but--it depends on your goals and your human audience.

4. Two = +examples to convey the context-dependence of appropriate configuration sche= +mes:

A. One time I wrote a small but slightly complex bit of code (i= +n Perl, not Clojure).  I could see that it would be confusing, if some= +one just started reading the code at an arbitrary place.  But I also k= +new the ability of the other programmers I worked with, and I knew that if = +they started reading at one particular function, they would be able to figu= +re out most of the rest.  I provided text that explained what they wou= +ldn't be able to figure out.  About six months after I left the compan= +y, one of the programmers contacted me and asked me to explain the program;= + he had to make a modification.  I told him to look at such and such d= +ocument, which mainly said "Start reading the code at such and such point, = +and understand these few other things."  He did, and that was all he n= +eeded.  If I wrote more documentation, I would only be duplicating the= + information that was already there in the source code, and that would be a= +pparent for the kind of people who would read it.  In fact, if I provi= +ded more documentation, I doubt that the other programmers would hav= +e read it.  They would have just looked at the source.

B. Anoth= +er example.

I generally don't like the idea of LP.  That is to = +say, I like the idea of people who want to be able to use it, using it, but= + I don't want to use it, usually.  And the reason that I don't want to= + use it is not simply that I don't want to bother writing it.  It's th= +at I want the ability to use simple tools and I want to have relatively unc= +luttered source code.  (I could use LP and have uncluttered source muc= +h of the time, but only by using special tools.)

In my current main = +project, there is source code that implements the central functionality of = +the application, and there are rather complex configuration files.  I = +write documents to describe the central functionality source code, so that = +someone who wants to hack on it will know where to start and where to look.= +  I have to trust that they will know or will be willing to learn Cloj= +ure, because otherwise I'd have to explain too much.

However, the co= +nfiguration files should be modifiable by people who won't understand the g= +uts of the program, and yet, they are in Clojure, and would be pretty unint= +elligible to someone who merely understood in general what the program was = +supposed to do.  (I may create a DSL for the config files, but all tha= +t will do will be to get rid of a few parentheses.  The information in= + the config files won't be expressed significantly more succinctly.)
For the first time I'm thinking of using LP.  It would be perfect for= + the config files, and in fact, any other way of documenting the config fil= +es will probably be inadequate.  Interspersing explanations with the c= +onfiguration code is precisely what's needed.
+------=_Part_2383_7393408.1400708343793-- + +------=_Part_2382_26199928.1400708343793-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 02:17:26 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnMJi-0006KV-Mg + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:17:26 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44460) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnMJY-0006Hl-RP + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:17:24 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnMJQ-0006f0-Nh + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:17:16 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:54075 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnMJQ-0006eZ-HW + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:17:08 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4M6GsFI029346; + Thu, 22 May 2014 01:16:55 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id 15C99687CA; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:16:54 -0400 (EDT) +From: u1204 +To: Gregg Reynolds , +In-Reply-To: + (message from Gregg Reynolds on Wed, 21 May 2014 21:22:58 -0500) +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 02:16:53 -0400 +Message-ID: <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, clojure@googlegroups.com +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 06:17:24 -0000 + +Gregg and Gary, + +I understand where you are coming from. Indeed, Maturana [0] is on your +side of the debate. Since even the philosophers can't agree, I doubt we +will find a common ground. + +Unfortunately, I've decided to take on the task of documenting the +Clojure internals because, yaknow, *I* don't feel I understand something +until I know what the hardware does; consider this a flaw in my +personality :-) I have to say that the posted Clojure code is +"somewhat lacking" in the communication department. Perhaps it is only +intended for an "audience of one", and I'm not "the one". :-) + +Contrary to popular belief, I am reading the code. As a result, I have a +strongly held opinion that there is a lot that could be done to make +it less of a struggle. + + + + +>> From my point of view there are at least a few things that seem clear: +>> +>> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to +>> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, +>> as well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +>> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +>> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) +>> +> +>I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience" of one. +>I guess I would say "reader/responder". + +Hmmm. Common Lisp is about 25 years old. Assume Clojure lives that long. +What are the odds that the original authors will be maintaining the +code? Will the code still be "an audience of one"? Are you sure that's +a worthwhile goal? + + + +>> 2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure source code has no +>> single kind of human audience for the code. +>> +>> In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, +>> depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the +>> code, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to +>> interface with it, for example. Further, I think about the skill levels +>> and background of those who will read the code. And I think about what +>> they would want to do with it. And then I make decisions that involve +>> tradeoffs between competing desiderata. +> + +My experience "in industry" with "general-purpose tool" code is that +code does look a lot different from project to project and language to +language. But as code moved out of its childhood and off the desk, it +began to grow hair and get ugly. The authors all assumed they would be +"the only maintainer". For instance, + + I once had to maintain a C program that had 14 pages of nested ifdefs + just to choose the correct #include files. Each include file had + ifdefs. The code ran everywhere, Intel, ARM, 68000s, SUNs, DEC, + etc. but nearly every line was based on experience (e.g. compensating + for floating-point errors on various platforms, hacking around errors + in various C compilers and their "optimizers", etc.) with ifdefs + around each hack. I had to run the compiler intermediate stage to + figure out what the actual code would be for my platform. And then I + had to reverse-engineer the fix into the appropriate include files; + uncommented I might add. I wouldn't want to ruin the style. + + Sophisticated Lisp programmers use macros A LOT. Axiom, for instance, + compiles code from a high-level algebra language, essentially a DSL, + into macros that index into vectors for the function to call, or the + category to inherit which might contain the call, and the environment + passed to each function is a huge vector. DSLs, which make the top + level code "so clear", often are macros generating machine-code-like + lisp doing super-efficient vector indexing. One finds macros + expanding into macros expanding into macros. Quick, what does the + spadcall macro do? + + And we won't even mention that despite the use of a DSL, the DSL + code isn't "perfectly clear" either. This is especially true when + it gets mixed with inline, non-DSL code. For instance, Axiom's + algebra code regularly invokes low-level lisp functions. + + + +>Exactly. Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what +>all code should look like. Maybe it's essentially pluralistic. + +Yes, it is hard to generalize about what all code should look like. But +it is not hard to generalize that reading natural language explanations +is faster, more accurate, and a lot easier than reverse-engineering +code. It is MUCH easier to understand Greg Humphrey's rendering code +than it is to understand the Clojure internals. + +Consider a randomly chosen paragraph from Physically Based Rendering +(p356): + + + + To do the permutation, this function loops over the samples, randomly + permuting the sample points in one dimension at a time. Note that this + is a different permutation than the earlier Shuffle() routine: that + routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each + sample together, while here nDim separate permutations of a single + dimension at a time are done. (Figure 7.21) + + for (uint32_t i = 0; i < nDim; ++1) { + for (uint32_t j = 0; j < nSamples; ++j) { + uint32_t other = j + (rng.RandomUInt() % (nSamples - j)); + swap(samples[nDim + j + i], samples[nDim * other + i]); + } + } + + Footnote: While it's not necessary to permute the first dimension of + the LHS pattern, the implementation here does so anyway since making + the elements of the first dimension be randomly ordered means that LHS + patterns can be used in conjunction with sampling patterns from other + sources without danger of correlation between their sample points. + + + +So we learned what the code does. We also learned not to "optimize the +code" by replacing it with Shuffle(). Further, we learned that we +shouldn't "optimize the code" by removing the apparently useless +shuffle of the first dimension. And, as a bonus, we get a figure. +NONE OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE CODE ITSELF. + +In addition, this code lives in an organizing structure. It is +in Chapter 7: Sampling and Reconstruction + Section 7.3: Stratified Samples + + +Heck, it is only 4 lines of C++. Why bother? *I* can read C++. I can +even reverse engineer it (probably by inventing the diagram in Figure +2.7 on a napkin). Maybe it lives in the src/SamRecon/StratSam, which is +all the organization necessary. :-) But I can't reverse engineer the +important information in either paragraph of text. + +For comparison, refer back to the multi-page Java code I posted +from the Clojure core. As a maintenance programmer, which would you +rather maintain? + + + + +Estimates are that programs that "live" spend 80% or more of their +"lifetime" in maintenance. + +Companies that depend on a "crufty old program" (a l33t-speak term for +any program not authored by the current maintainer) are willing to pay +the cost to have programmers read the code, take notes, and spend time +reverse-engineering the code. + +In contrast, open source code tends to die the moment the original +authors stop typing. Sourceforge, github, savannah, etc. are +wall-to-wall full of code nobody will ever use. It is very common to +see someone write: + + "Well, it hasn't been updated in the last 6 months so I don't think + it is being maintained anymore." + +Being an "audience of one" when writing the code means the program +will have an "audience of one" in github; until 6 months pass and it has +an "audience of zero". + +Languages come into fashion all the time. Almost all of them disappear. +Axiom and Clojure are worthwhile efforts. We really need a mindset that +extends into the future, communicating with the maintainers. + +Tim Daly + + +For want of a comment, the fix was lost. +For want of a fix, the routine was lost. +For want of a routine, a program was lost. +For want of a program, the customer was lost. +For want of a customer, the company was lost. + +[0] Zeleny, M. (ed.) + "Autopoiesis, a Theory of the Living Organization" + New York, Elsevier-North Holland (1978) + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 03:22:13 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnNKP-0004fv-P6 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 03:22:13 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57056) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnIev-00008f-PN + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 22:23:10 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnIeq-0007ql-P8 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 22:23:05 -0400 +Received: from mail-we0-f175.google.com ([74.125.82.175]:58992) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnIeq-0007qJ-Fn + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 22:23:00 -0400 +Received: by mail-we0-f175.google.com with SMTP id t61so2830760wes.34 + for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 19:22:58 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date + :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; + bh=0V57UL8A80TZmh1Qrf69spDsWMAoHsmOGNyxg6UeHWk=; + b=D8X+p3wvbZCfYeksG+iZPtUpa0FICduB68vGbQVLHOcty0szVa9G4cAi3EzYy05py9 + aNOYY/jci9Sx1VfGuRz5ssZXkyNSJ549CwGC3cb8PQSdXr8OrPw1ZjM644VSolqLtxIO + uDTnjiytLWb/yAjNEHGhUlC10GOIcf26J5NfXjxA0e3tnXLn/3lJjdHOSoWhGsYFGaCZ + 3Yywoq8JLiY2B6X7CVQLW7S7ekZ+LMFLP58JqSZnwzDXbfpFDxAcPwkpq/Cbg2w5d0yX + wP5SyzetQy+R+XTNe4o9ROqe7BVrTgoUgQdf7wWNANV4K8ge5VNdTb+8vSatN4dshU84 + YEcQ== +X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmpa4rW4HTRBxEKYgPxRppINxBn/2nP9aGZ261ZtbX/PoGUxva2tvl41OggeN2syRwDrxun +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.180.106.194 with SMTP id gw2mr13682601wib.47.1400725378552; + Wed, 21 May 2014 19:22:58 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.180.3.202 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 19:22:58 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: +References: <201405211103.s4LB34fT024755@axiom-developer.org> + +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:22:58 -0500 +Message-ID: +From: Gregg Reynolds +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3bab239def0a04f9f3ca01 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 74.125.82.175 +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 May 2014 03:22:12 -0400 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 02:23:10 -0000 + +--e89a8f3bab239def0a04f9f3ca01 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Mars0i wrote: + +> Tim, +> +> From my point of view there are at least a few things that seem clear: +> +> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to +> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, +> as well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) +> + +I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience" of one. +I guess I would say "reader/responder". + + +> +> 2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure source code has no +> single kind of human audience for the code. +> +> In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, +> depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the +> code, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to +> interface with it, for example. Further, I think about the skill levels +> and background of those who will read the code. And I think about what +> they would want to do with it. And then I make decisions that involve +> tradeoffs between competing desiderata. +> + +Exactly. Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what +all code should look like. Maybe it's essentially pluralistic. + +> +> 3. There is a tradeoff between the desire to see a lot of code at once, +> without a lot of text cluttering it up, and understanding what the code is +> doing. Comments hurt the former but can help the latter. The same thing +> goes for literate programming, but--it depends on your goals and your human +> audience. +> +> 4. Two examples to convey the context-dependence of appropriate +> configuration schemes: +> +> A. One time I wrote a small but slightly complex bit of code (in Perl, not +> Clojure). I could see that it would be confusing, if someone just started +> reading the code at an arbitrary place. But I also knew the ability of the +> other programmers I worked with, and I knew that if they started reading at +> one particular function, they would be able to figure out most of the +> rest. I provided text that explained what they wouldn't be able to figure +> out. About six months after I left the company, one of the programmers +> contacted me and asked me to explain the program; he had to make a +> modification. I told him to look at such and such document, which mainly +> said "Start reading the code at such and such point, and understand these +> few other things." He did, and that was all he needed. If I wrote more +> documentation, I would only be duplicating the information that was already +> there in the source code, and that would be apparent for the kind of people +> who would read it. In fact, if I provided *more* documentation, I doubt +> that the other programmers would have read it. They would have just looked +> at the source. +> + +Yep; there's always a point of diminishing returns. I find that in +developing code (or trying to understand others' code) I often take +extensive notes and sometimes try to mentally "improve" what I deem sloppy +or hard-to-read by writing a clear description of it, or just expressing it +in different language. But once I get comfortable with the code I don't +often return to my documentation. + +... + +> For the first time I'm thinking of using LP. It would be perfect for the +> config files, and in fact, any other way of documenting the config files +> will probably be inadequate. Interspersing explanations with the +> configuration code is precisely what's needed. +> + +I agree, that's a case where monolithic LP is entirely appropriate. Ditto +for APIs and unit tests; maybe also for simplified examples of API usage +expressly designed for training. + +-Gregg + +--e89a8f3bab239def0a04f9f3ca01 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Mars0i = +<marshall@logi= +cal.net> wrote:
+
Tim,

From my point o= +f view there are at least a few things that seem clear:

1. I think t= +hat Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to his remarks tha= +t there is almost always a human audience for source code, as well as the c= +ompiler/interpreter.=C2=A0 Sometimes, the audience is just the originally p= +rogrammer, perhaps at a later date.=C2=A0 (If I missed something, Gregg, so= +rry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.)
+

I agree; whoever writes the code aut= +omatically forms an "audience" of one.=C2=A0 I guess I would say = +"reader/responder".
=C2=A0
+

2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure so= +urce code has no single kind of human audience for the code.=C2=A0

= +In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, d= +epending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the code= +, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to interf= +ace with it, for example.=C2=A0 Further, I think about the skill levels and= + background of those who will read the code.=C2=A0 And I think about what t= +hey would want to do with it.=C2=A0 And then I make decisions that involve = +tradeoffs between competing desiderata.
+

Exactly.=C2=A0 Conclusion: it's = +hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what all code should look like.= +=C2=A0 Maybe it's essentially pluralistic.
+

3. There is a tradeoff between the desire to see a lot= + of code at once, without a lot of text cluttering it up, and understanding= + what the code is doing.=C2=A0 Comments hurt the former but can help the la= +tter.=C2=A0 The same thing goes for literate programming, but--it depends o= +n your goals and your human audience.
+
4. Two examples to convey the context-dependence of appropriate configu= +ration schemes:

A. One time I wrote a small but slightly complex bit= + of code (in Perl, not Clojure).=C2=A0 I could see that it would be confusi= +ng, if someone just started reading the code at an arbitrary place.=C2=A0 B= +ut I also knew the ability of the other programmers I worked with, and I kn= +ew that if they started reading at one particular function, they would be a= +ble to figure out most of the rest.=C2=A0 I provided text that explained wh= +at they wouldn't be able to figure out.=C2=A0 About six months after I = +left the company, one of the programmers contacted me and asked me to expla= +in the program; he had to make a modification.=C2=A0 I told him to look at = +such and such document, which mainly said "Start reading the code at s= +uch and such point, and understand these few other things."=C2=A0 He d= +id, and that was all he needed.=C2=A0 If I wrote more documentation, I woul= +d only be duplicating the information that was already there in the source = +code, and that would be apparent for the kind of people who would read it.= +=C2=A0 In fact, if I provided more documentation, I doubt that the o= +ther programmers would have read it.=C2=A0 They would have just looked at t= +he source.
+

Yep; there's always a point of d= +iminishing returns.=C2=A0 I find that in developing code (or trying to unde= +rstand others' code) I often take extensive notes and sometimes try to = +mentally "improve" what I deem sloppy or hard-to-read by writing = +a clear description of it, or just expressing it in different language.=C2= +=A0 But once I get comfortable with the code I don't often return to my= + documentation.
+

...
For the fi= +rst time I'm thinking of using LP.=C2=A0 It would be perfect for the co= +nfig files, and in fact, any other way of documenting the config files will= + probably be inadequate.=C2=A0 Interspersing explanations with the configur= +ation code is precisely what's needed.
+

I agree, that's a case where mon= +olithic LP is entirely appropriate.=C2=A0 Ditto for APIs and unit tests; ma= +ybe also for simplified examples of API usage expressly designed for traini= +ng.
+

-Gregg
+ +--e89a8f3bab239def0a04f9f3ca01-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 05:21:50 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnPCA-0006MR-9C + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:21:50 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48987) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnPC3-0006FL-HP + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:21:48 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnPBy-0007PN-Ec + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:21:43 -0400 +Received: from mail-wg0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:37311) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnPBy-0007PH-4z + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:21:38 -0400 +Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id m15so3140136wgh.20 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:21:37 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date + :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; + bh=3AV+MjqEUVXr3/xSzAx9Qtm573T8XrMGSPuyrIoQtIM=; + b=GQYOTRBcXhqR80Tz1rZF0JxpQBZ5ZK0PnnyhZl9TRYW1jl1IUCE0yHPtkIrRFCqThV + A4POMfeSoJaw1P/G0TweM0L6D19XintB6sysOEA/bV8GhxNA7J2NUk2boI3NHn68xAj2 + kdjAgxvCJMS511gHRuYSfuUR43fZ+ryljB1dSK4zAhysSIZlviwC1bccsgBNFH+U9c76 + tdgaxHsGTsF8m9EhjQNCmM/qsqMcERMiB9lC2YiCxZI023+zW2YFgyJx3wBGH80bPexQ + K0klavOGUiSTAjag9JjqJmDGxpzFkDirSoCyZlJXhs20PaSCLJHFBOvBU4MM9jSAgyJ/ + G2kQ== +X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmgNX8IYyDvDMduo4c7OAxI07/gEuKlWIF0K3hWUGTN6x9ViBqbsjDsCwhSM8wrW/u3u4R1 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.180.90.145 with SMTP id bw17mr5255882wib.43.1400750497326; + Thu, 22 May 2014 02:21:37 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.180.3.202 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 02:21:37 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +References: + <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 04:21:37 -0500 +Message-ID: +From: Gregg Reynolds +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043be1c4d0020c04f9f9a323 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 +Cc: marshall@logical.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 09:21:48 -0000 + +--f46d043be1c4d0020c04f9f9a323 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +Howdy Tim, + + +On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:16 AM, u1204 wrote: + +> Gregg and Gary, +> +> I understand where you are coming from. Indeed, Maturana [0] is on your +> side of the debate. Since even the philosophers can't agree, I doubt we +> will find a common ground. +> + +Ah, but philosophers never agree. Disagreement is part of their job +description. Why should programmers be any different? + + +> +> Unfortunately, I've decided to take on the task of documenting the +> Clojure internals because, yaknow, *I* don't feel I understand something +> until I know what the hardware does; consider this a flaw in my +> personality :-) + + +I suffer from a similar malady, which compels me to continually rewrite +other peoples code, since, gee whiz, "foo" is not quite the perfect name +for that darn variable, "bar" would be just slightly better, and on and +on. You can see why I prefer code to commentary. +... +>> +>> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to +>> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, +>> as well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +>> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +>> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) +>> +> +>I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience" of one. +>I guess I would say "reader/responder". + +Hmmm. Common Lisp is about 25 years old. Assume Clojure lives that long. +> What are the odds that the original authors will be maintaining the +> code? Will the code still be "an audience of one"? Are you sure that's +> a worthwhile goal? +> + +I think you may have misunderstood me (dunno about Gary): my point is that +even one-off code that gets discarded immediately has a human reader, +namely the author. A statement of (minimal) fact, not a goal. + +... + +> +> Sophisticated Lisp programmers use macros A LOT. + + +That's because they are language designers, and they know it. + + +> expanding into macros expanding into macros. Quick, what does the +> spadcall macro do? +> + +HCF? + +>Exactly. Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what +> >all code should look like. Maybe it's essentially pluralistic. +> +> Yes, it is hard to generalize about what all code should look like. But +> it is not hard to generalize that reading natural language explanations +> is faster, more accurate, and a lot easier than reverse-engineering +> code. + + +Whoa Nelly! I don't agree with that at all, either in principle or by +experience. Well, ok, you've rigged the game. Easier than +"reverse-engineering code" - what does that mean? I guess you mean reading +well-written natural language explanations is faster etc. than reading +badly written code - but so what? It's not a meaningful comparison. Would +you take a comparison between a sample of well-written code and a sample +badly written LP as evidence against LP? I would not. To me the question +is whether well-written natural language explanation adds anything of +substance to well-written code. + + +> It is MUCH easier to understand Greg Humphrey's rendering code +> than it is to understand the Clojure internals. +> + +Ok, but I don't see how exhibiting a piece of transparent code next to a +piece of opaque code demonstrates anything. + + +> +> Consider a randomly chosen paragraph from Physically Based Rendering +> (p356): +> +> To do the permutation, this function loops over the samples, randomly +> permuting the sample points in one dimension at a time. Note that this +> is a different permutation than the earlier Shuffle() routine: that +> routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each +> sample together, while here nDim separate permutations of a single +> dimension at a time are done. (Figure 7.21) +> +> for (uint32_t i = 0; i < nDim; ++1) { +> for (uint32_t j = 0; j < nSamples; ++j) { +> uint32_t other = j + (rng.RandomUInt() % (nSamples - j)); +> swap(samples[nDim + j + i], samples[nDim * other + i]); +> } +> } +> +> Footnote: While it's not necessary to permute the first dimension of +> the LHS pattern, the implementation here does so anyway since making +> the elements of the first dimension be randomly ordered means that LHS +> patterns can be used in conjunction with sampling patterns from other +> sources without danger of correlation between their sample points. +> +> So we learned what the code does. We also learned not to "optimize the +> code" by replacing it with Shuffle(). Further, we learned that we +> shouldn't "optimize the code" by removing the apparently useless +> shuffle of the first dimension. And, as a bonus, we get a figure. +> NONE OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE CODE ITSELF. +> + +For "what the code does": + +/* inline random, total, in-place matrix permutation - contrast Shuffle() */ +...code... + +The first line of commentary is totally redundant, so it is a waste of time +to read both it and the code. As for what not to "optimize": if none of +the conclusions you draw are in the code, they're not in the commentary, +either. Replacing the code with Shuffle would change the meaning from +total to partial permutation, so it would not be an optimization. Ditto +for replacing it with Shuffle. But the explanation of the difference +between this code and Shuffle is unhelpful to me - what does "[the Shuffle] +routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each sample +together" mean? I'd have to read that code to find out, so the commentary +has just wasted my time. As for the permutation of the first dimension, +here the commentary is bad again - first it says it is not necessary, then +it explains that it is necessary if you want to use it for a specific +purpose. As for the figure, I assume the book has some kind of graphic. I +don't think I need a graphic to understand the code - it's a simple +permutation. + +So for me at least, this example counts against rather than for the point +that (I assume) you want to make. The point I will make is not that +documentation is inherently evil - far from it - but merely that +explanatory prose is not a *necesssary* condition of readable code. And it +often makes things worse, as in this case. + + +> +> In addition, this code lives in an organizing structure. It is +> in Chapter 7: Sampling and Reconstruction +> Section 7.3: Stratified Samples +> +> +> Heck, it is only 4 lines of C++. Why bother? *I* can read C++. I can +> even reverse engineer it (probably by inventing the diagram in Figure +> 2.7 on a napkin). Maybe it lives in the src/SamRecon/StratSam, which is +> all the organization necessary. :-) But I can't reverse engineer the +> important information in either paragraph of text. +> +> For comparison, refer back to the multi-page Java code I posted +> from the Clojure core. As a maintenance programmer, which would you +> rather maintain? +> + +Really? What's the point of comparing 4 lines of C++ and multiple pages of +Java? I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +the largely useless commentary. I would also rather maintain a +(well-written) plain Pascal version of "Printing the primes" than the LP +version Knuth uses in his paper on LP (a web search will turn up a preprint +copy). + +... snip ... + +Languages come into fashion all the time. Almost all of them disappear. +> Axiom and Clojure are worthwhile efforts. We really need a mindset that +> extends into the future, communicating with the maintainers. +> + +Dunno anything about Axiom, I'm afraid. As for the future, I think it is +best served by doing our best to write clear *code* now. You mentioned +Axiom has a 30 year timeline. I won't be surprised if humans do relatively +little hands-on coding (or code reading) by then. Between AI and automated +reasoning (for which the commentary part of LP is irrelevant) I expect the +number of programmer jobs to shrink drastically by then. + +In any case, I wish you luck with your Clojure internals project. If XML +doesn't give you the hives check out +https://github.com/mobileink/xsl.clj-ext - I think it could be used to good +effect to document the APIs, if not the internals, by example. + +-Gregg + +--f46d043be1c4d0020c04f9f9a323 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
Howdy Tim,


On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:16 AM, u1204 <daly= +@axiom-developer.org> wrote:
+
Gregg and Gary,
+
+I understand where you are coming from. Indeed, Maturana [0] is on your
+side of the debate. Since even the philosophers can't agree, I doubt we= +
+will find a common ground.

Ah, but phil= +osophers never agree.=C2=A0 Disagreement is part of their job description.= +=C2=A0 Why should programmers be any different?
=C2=A0
<= +blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= +eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> + +
+Unfortunately, I've decided to take on the task of documenting the
+Clojure internals because, yaknow, *I* don't feel I understand somethin= +g
+until I know what the hardware does; consider this a flaw in my
+personality :-)

I suffer from a = +similar malady, which compels me to continually rewrite other peoples code,= + since, gee whiz, "foo" is not quite the perfect name for that da= +rn variable, "bar" would be just slightly better, and on and on.= +=C2=A0 You can see why I prefer code to commentary.
+...
>>
+>> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would a= +dd to
+>> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for sourc= +e code,
+>> as well as the compiler/interpreter. =C2=A0Sometimes, the audience= + is just the
+>> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. =C2=A0(If I missed= + something,
+>> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.)
+>>
+>
+>I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience&= +quot; of one.
+>I guess I would say "reader/responder".
+
+
Hmmm. Common Lisp i= +s about 25 years old. Assume Clojure lives that long.
+What are the odds that the original authors will be maintaining the
+code? Will the code still be "an audience of one"? Are you sure t= +hat's
+a worthwhile goal?

I think you may have= + misunderstood me (dunno about Gary): my point is that even one-off code th= +at gets discarded immediately has a human reader, namely the author.=C2=A0 = +A statement of (minimal) fact, not a goal.
+

...
+
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sophisticated Lisp programmers use macros A LOT.
= +

That's because they are language designers, and the= +y know it.
=C2=A0
+ +=C2=A0 =C2=A0expanding into macros expanding into macros. Quick, what does = +the
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0spadcall macro do?

HCF?

+>Exactly. =C2=A0Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generali= +ze about what
+>all code should look like. =C2=A0Maybe it's essentially pluralistic= +.
+
+
Yes, it is hard to generalize about what all code should look like. B= +ut
+it is not hard to generalize that reading natural language explanations
+is faster, more accurate, and a lot easier than reverse-engineering
+code.

Whoa Nelly!=C2=A0 I don't agree w= +ith that at all, either in principle or by experience.=C2=A0 Well, ok, you&= +#39;ve rigged the game.=C2=A0 Easier than "reverse-engineering code&qu= +ot; - what does that mean?=C2=A0 I guess you mean reading well-written natu= +ral language explanations is faster etc. than reading badly written code - = +but so what?=C2=A0 It's not a meaningful comparison.=C2=A0 Would you ta= +ke a comparison between a sample of well-written code and a sample badly wr= +itten LP as evidence against LP?=C2=A0 I would not.=C2=A0 To me the questio= +n is whether well-written natural language explanation adds anything of sub= +stance to well-written code.
+
=C2=A0
I= +t is MUCH easier to understand Greg Humphrey's rendering code
+than it is to understand the Clojure internals.

Ok, but I don't see how exhibiting a piece of transparent code= + next to a piece of opaque code demonstrates anything.
=C2=A0= +
+
+
+Consider a randomly chosen paragraph from Physically Based Rendering
+(p356):
+
+=C2=A0 To do the permutation, this function loops over the samples, randoml= +y
+=C2=A0 permuting the sample points in one dimension at a time. Note that th= +is
+=C2=A0 is a different permutation than the earlier Shuffle() routine: that<= +br> +=C2=A0 routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each= +
+=C2=A0 sample together, while here nDim separate permutations of a single +=C2=A0 dimension at a time are done. (Figure 7.21)
+
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0for (uint32_t i =3D 0; i < nDim; ++1) {
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for (uint32_t j =3D 0; j < nSamples; ++j) {
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0uint32_t other =3D j + (rng.RandomUInt() % (nSam= +ples - j));
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0swap(samples[nDim + j + i], samples[nDim * other= + + i]);
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
+
+=C2=A0 Footnote: While it's not necessary to permute the first dimensio= +n of
+=C2=A0 the LHS pattern, the implementation here does so anyway since making= +
+=C2=A0 the elements of the first dimension be randomly ordered means that L= +HS
+=C2=A0 patterns can be used in conjunction with sampling patterns from othe= +r
+=C2=A0 sources without danger of correlation between their sample points. +
+So we learned what the code does. We also learned not to "optimize the= +
+code" by replacing it with Shuffle(). Further, we learned that we
+shouldn't "optimize the code" by removing the apparently usel= +ess
+shuffle of the first dimension. And, as a bonus, we get a figure.
+NONE OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE CODE ITSELF.

For &qu= +ot;what the code does":

<= +/div>
/* inline random, total, in-place matrix permutation - contrast S= +huffle() */
+
...code...

The first line of commentary is tot= +ally redundant, so it is a waste of time to read both it and the code.=C2= +=A0 As for what not to "optimize": if none of the conclusions you= + draw are in the code, they're not in the commentary, either.=C2=A0 Rep= +lacing the code with Shuffle would change the meaning from total to partial= + permutation, so it would not be an optimization.=C2=A0 Ditto for replacing= + it with Shuffle.=C2=A0 But the explanation of the difference between this = +code and Shuffle is unhelpful to me - what does "[the Shuffle] routine= + does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each sample togeth= +er" mean?=C2=A0 I'd have to read that code to find out, so the com= +mentary has just wasted my time. =C2=A0 As for the permutation of the first= + dimension, here the commentary is bad again - first it says it is not nece= +ssary, then it explains that it is necessary if you want to use it for a sp= +ecific purpose.=C2=A0 As for the figure, I assume the book has some kind of= + graphic.=C2=A0 I don't think I need a graphic to understand the code -= + it's a simple permutation.
+
So for me at least, this example counts against rather than = +for the point that (I assume) you want to make.=C2=A0 The point I will make= + is not that documentation is inherently evil - far from it - but merely th= +at explanatory prose is not a *necesssary* condition of readable code.=C2= +=A0 And it often makes things worse, as in this case.
+
=C2=A0
+
+In addition, this code lives in an organizing structure. It is
+in Chapter 7: Sampling and Reconstruction
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 7.3: Stratified Samples
+
+
+Heck, it is only 4 lines of C++. Why bother? *I* can read C++. =C2=A0I can<= +br> +even reverse engineer it (probably by inventing the diagram in Figure
+2.7 on a napkin). Maybe it lives in the src/SamRecon/StratSam, which is
+all the organization necessary. :-) =C2=A0But I can't reverse engineer = +the
+important information in either paragraph of text.
+
+For comparison, refer back to the multi-page Java code I posted
+from the Clojure core. As a maintenance programmer, which would you
+rather maintain?

Really?=C2=A0 What'= +;s the point of comparing 4 lines of C++ and multiple pages of Java?=C2=A0 = +I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without the la= +rgely useless commentary.=C2=A0 I would also rather maintain a (well-writte= +n) plain Pascal version of "Printing the primes" than the LP vers= +ion Knuth uses in his paper on LP (a web search will turn up a preprint cop= +y).
+
=C2=A0
... snip ...

+Languages come into fashion all the time. Almost all of them disappear.
+Axiom and Clojure are worthwhile efforts. We really need a mindset that
+extends into the future, communicating with the maintainers.

Dunno anything about Axiom, I'm afraid.=C2=A0 As = +for the future, I think it is best served by doing our best to write clear = +*code* now.=C2=A0 You mentioned Axiom has a 30 year timeline.=C2=A0 I won&#= +39;t be surprised if humans do relatively little hands-on coding (or code r= +eading) by then.=C2=A0 Between AI and automated reasoning (for which the co= +mmentary part of LP is irrelevant) I expect the number of programmer jobs t= +o shrink drastically by then.
+
In any case, I wish you luck with your Clojure internals pro= +ject.=C2=A0 If XML doesn't give you the hives check out https://github.com/mobileink/xsl.clj-= +ext - I think it could be used to good effect to document the APIs, if = +not the internals, by example.
+

-Gregg
+ +--f46d043be1c4d0020c04f9f9a323-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 05:40:43 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnPUQ-0004Lu-JS + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:40:42 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53546) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnPUJ-0004Lh-8W + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:40:41 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnPUD-00057l-1x + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:40:35 -0400 +Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9]:49162) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnPUC-000578-OZ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 05:40:28 -0400 +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1400751625; l=434; + s=domk; d=hemmecke.org; + h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References: + Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; + bh=rAmn6iFGVshx+eHkhQKdH6/AMLw=; + b=ZzRPBRSUpCoLlk5CG8PoqAEbIiVQZROonYzddfC+VfA5OLhblcGVdXyRPVt6MsGGO0E + 0i5m23VVaMRyiwHs7e+/dXM34X8s8FhNADW6V4baHHZwStFZctQSvKoTtLCPx6NAspqhx + wyrlaP8kF4Bj1qOsnviLzluD9ff6Wg90MFg= +X-RZG-AUTH: :Pm0Ic2CgfvKqpyys4bXs6bamDO4KmmoRsZ13hlmoEk5RYEk+icxFp+pk/v/tAqQ= +X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 +Received: from [193.170.38.230] (trex.risc.uni-linz.ac.at [193.170.38.230]) + by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 34.2 AUTH) with ESMTPSA id Q01777q4M9ePkTE + (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) + (Client did not present a certificate) + for ; + Thu, 22 May 2014 11:40:25 +0200 (CEST) +Message-ID: <537DC608.9030300@hemmecke.org> +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 11:40:24 +0200 +From: Ralf Hemmecke +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> + +In-Reply-To: +X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 09:40:41 -0000 + +On 05/22/2014 11:21 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote: +> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +> the largely useless commentary. + +That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +into any programming language. + +foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == + if a > 0 then + if a > b then return foo(b,a) + return foo(b-a,a)) + return b + +Question: Does the program have a bug? + +Ralf + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 09:29:29 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnT3p-00048m-SN + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:29:29 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55420) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnT3j-00048b-Jp + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:29:29 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnT3e-0003nh-5b + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:29:23 -0400 +Received: from mail-ee0-x22e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4013:c00::22e]:62128) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) + id 1WnT3d-0003na-Qn + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:29:18 -0400 +Received: by mail-ee0-f46.google.com with SMTP id t10so2658726eei.19 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=unife.it; s=google; + h=from:date:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references + :user-agent:organization:mime-version:content-type; + bh=Bfrb+atRjnFpeMlWiqktj4mI3yRw3Eb1GwgGeHAJeJI=; + b=KqOdrlcyooDFcMkdGqR525pgTQe8Dj2YvHZGzlFSHPPVd08SIcEwlWcRlBN5XYNYNc + t+TFb6S/zKTExoqhI2gN7TuA96KgyMObUVUbY4QXACZ4LXFsR5AEIDWyw9XNG9nvUUXf + JYKIVhCEWO8NLLOL68Jsn53WWsj/au5qOX1Lg= +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to + :message-id:references:user-agent:organization:mime-version + :content-type; + bh=Bfrb+atRjnFpeMlWiqktj4mI3yRw3Eb1GwgGeHAJeJI=; + b=X/MBVCvqLDwKuYI8Et6X6EiHuWzrWGZ5WvbZ1y+nXaCPBs22zvDdqbddv9muAkwCyl + CvirZGIjzCj/YTFPbd1YzYxW+IQc165j2kKZ7+TwU81T9CoGscg0uT1ilSqy9IrtlBjK + 2hmZTeDZe24TOzZTefAbkPRRAb9GdLoVTPGmvzFbpeLLY1iUyolGcw3xRWVp9J5mS/xS + VNfGnw7AAXb+Q25ZdMbh3IAkda5XJ7c8yscDeYr80zDEG9LH2TYALs1tBp4XxhJSgX7I + tNRyJ4Dqfz0WmEKbiJx5VO0m3at4v7NMHqS2h+xKko+Au8ZopXlDdGiu+7nvh967Doyx + c/2w== +X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnPrZ+VT3dmnnJTEQL8DPCZ2HjFeH5sqLXEnHguq2FLTcpmryJMYxEactOcXL8itljQnf0B +X-Received: by 10.14.95.129 with SMTP id p1mr3551003eef.102.1400765356115; + Thu, 22 May 2014 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) +Received: from [10.10.10.23] ([151.42.231.204]) + by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id z48sm516960eel.27.2014.05.22.06.29.14 + for + (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); + Thu, 22 May 2014 06:29:15 -0700 (PDT) +From: "Fabio S." +X-Google-Original-From: "Fabio S." +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:29:11 +0200 (CEST) +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: <537DC608.9030300@hemmecke.org> +Message-ID: +References: + <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> + + <537DC608.9030300@hemmecke.org> +User-Agent: Alpine 2.10 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) +Organization: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Universit=E0_di_Ferrara?= +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4013:c00::22e +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +Reply-To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 13:29:29 -0000 + +>> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +>> the largely useless commentary. +> +> That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +> into any programming language. +> +> foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == +> if a > 0 then +> if a > b then return foo(b,a) +> return foo(b-a,a)) +> return b +> +> Question: Does the program have a bug? +> +> Ralf + +Yes: there is an extra parenthesis in the fourth line... :) + +Which, BTW, I discovered as soon as I pasted it in a file since +it was error-highlighted by the syntax highlighting in vim :)) + +A part from this, I think the example points out that perhaps we can make +a difference between source code of axiom (as a piece of software) and +implementation of (higher) mathematics: maybe the need for a +complete and thorough documentation can be considered of different +importance in the two cases. + +Fabio + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 09:53:35 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnTR9-0000em-TR + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:53:35 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33373) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnTR1-0000eD-U1 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:53:33 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnTQv-0005Tz-MV + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:53:27 -0400 +Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5300::11]:25175) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnTQv-0005TV-BK + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:53:21 -0400 +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1400766799; l=1298; + s=domk; d=hemmecke.org; + h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References: + Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; + bh=cXGNd+XwIV5UDQlthtzm/l0Cxno=; + b=p/qcYeFrZlpNX4VW3UPiWUyLAHiv/OrI4Oav8CCxtaBh8jpJxR5fG9cKByvYIVdHJu9 + b9bTzzHADdX5Fs+roeCeIdEFewxbBBC5B2lN/3+Cdo8r9OVFnKip0ODYp3lXgn2s1jJ5Q + FRXBEv1YGGh0dugqN4f2c2RKqCyv5ClowY8= +X-RZG-AUTH: :Pm0Ic2CgfvKqpyys4bXs6bamDO4KmmoRsZ13hlmoEk5RYEk+icxFp+pk/v/tAqQ= +X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 +Received: from [193.170.38.230] (trex.risc.uni-linz.ac.at [193.170.38.230]) + by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 34.2 AUTH) with ESMTPSA id g0494cq4MDeBkuA + (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) + (Client did not present a certificate); + Thu, 22 May 2014 15:40:11 +0200 (CEST) +Message-ID: <537DFE3B.10101@hemmecke.org> +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:40:11 +0200 +From: Ralf Hemmecke +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> <537DC608.9030300@hemmecke.org> + +In-Reply-To: +X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::11 +Cc: marshall@logical.net, dev@mobileink.com +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 13:53:34 -0000 + +On 05/22/2014 03:29 PM, Fabio S. wrote: +>>> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +>>> the largely useless commentary. +>> +>> That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +>> into any programming language. +>> +>> foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == +>> if a > 0 then +>> if a > b then return foo(b,a) +>> return foo(b-a,a)) +>> return b +>> +>> Question: Does the program have a bug? +>> +>> Ralf +> +> Yes: there is an extra parenthesis in the fourth line... :) +> +> Which, BTW, I discovered as soon as I pasted it in a file since it was +> error-highlighted by the syntax highlighting in vim :)) + +Well, you caught me, so I try again. ;-) +And... the problem is be no means specific to AXIOM. + +foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == + if a > 0 then + if a > b then return foo(b,a) + return foo(b-a,a) + return b + +Question: Does the program have a bug? + +> A part from this, I think the example points out that perhaps we can +> make a difference between source code of axiom (as a piece of software) +> and implementation of (higher) mathematics: maybe the need for a +> complete and thorough documentation can be considered of different +> importance in the two cases. + +Sorry, I don't get the difference. + +> +> Fabio + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 12:00:43 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnVQB-0004Q6-25 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:00:43 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40081) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnVQ4-0004G3-B0 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:00:41 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnVPz-0002Rg-3h + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:00:36 -0400 +Received: from bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.101]:1892) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnVPy-0002RW-Ql + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:00:31 -0400 +Received: from BAY179-W19 ([65.54.190.123]) by bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com + with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); + Thu, 22 May 2014 09:00:28 -0700 +X-TMN: [o9NBL19+jTPPmQZ+g9/N0UxmQoTOZiM3] +X-Originating-Email: [dastew@sympatico.ca] +Message-ID: +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="_7bcb012f-4217-42b8-b2cd-efb89ccc5371_" +From: +To: Ralf Hemmecke , "axiom-developer@nongnu.org" + +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:00:28 +0000 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <537DFE3B.10101@hemmecke.org> +References: + <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> + + <537DC608.9030300@hemmecke.org>, + , + <537DFE3B.10101@hemmecke.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2014 16:00:28.0877 (UTC) + FILETIME=[F3AE47D0:01CF75D6] +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Windows XP +X-Received-From: 65.54.190.101 +Cc: "marshall@logical.net" , + "dev@mobileink.com" +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:00:41 -0000 + +--_7bcb012f-4217-42b8-b2cd-efb89ccc5371_ +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + + + +> Date: Thu=2C 22 May 2014 15:40:11 +0200 +> From: ralf@hemmecke.org +> To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> CC: marshall@logical.net=3B dev@mobileink.com +> Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger=2C literate programming=2C and c= +ommunication +>=20 +> On 05/22/2014 03:29 PM=2C Fabio S. wrote: +> >>> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +> >>> the largely useless commentary. +> >> +> >> That's a simple AXIOM program=2C but I'm sure one can easily translate= + it +> >> into any programming language. +> >> +> >> foo(a: Integer=2C b: Integer): Integer =3D=3D +> >> if a > 0 then +> >> if a > b then return foo(b=2Ca) +> >> return foo(b-a=2Ca)) +> >> return b +> >> +> >> Question: Does the program have a bug? +> >> +> >> Ralf +> >=20 +> > Yes: there is an extra parenthesis in the fourth line... :) +> >=20 +> > Which=2C BTW=2C I discovered as soon as I pasted it in a file since it = +was +> > error-highlighted by the syntax highlighting in vim :)) +>=20 +> Well=2C you caught me=2C so I try again. =3B-) +> And... the problem is be no means specific to AXIOM. +>=20 +> foo(a: Integer=2C b: Integer): Integer =3D=3D +> if a > 0 then +> if a > b then return foo(b=2Ca) +> return foo(b-a=2Ca) +> return b +>=20 +> Question: Does the program have a bug? +>=20 + +I think that your question is related to the fact that if we don't know the= + purpose of a function then we cannot know if there is a bug in the functio= +n.And LP would explain the purpose of the function. + I am 100% in agreement with LP. +when I was teaching C C++ I was always repeating to my students that when y= +ou comment a line or section of code "don't tell me the this code copies t= +he value in y to x (x=3Dy) but tell me why that section of code is there." + I think that one of the posters is really missing the point of proper docu= +mentation=2C when he said that the comments are useless because he can alwa= +ys read the code. The comments are not there to explain what the code does = +on that low of a level=2C but why is it there and what is its overall purpo= +se=2C and why I did it that way and not some other way. + +Just my 2 cents worth. +PS I have many chunks of code that I wrote 20-30 years ago and I have no id= +ea why and what the code was written for!!!! even after reading each line o= +f the code!!!! + = + +--_7bcb012f-4217-42b8-b2cd-efb89ccc5371_ +Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + + + + +


>=3B Date: Thu=2C= + 22 May 2014 15:40:11 +0200
>=3B From: ralf@hemmecke.org
>=3B To:= + axiom-developer@nongnu.org
>=3B CC: marshall@logical.net=3B dev@mobil= +eink.com
>=3B Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger=2C literate pro= +gramming=2C and communication
>=3B
>=3B On 05/22/2014 03:29 PM= +=2C Fabio S. wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B I can tell you I would rat= +her maintain the four lines of C++ without
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B the= + largely useless commentary.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B = +That's a simple AXIOM program=2C but I'm sure one can easily translate it>=3B >=3B>=3B into any programming language.
>=3B >=3B>=3B= +
>=3B >=3B>=3B foo(a: Integer=2C b: Integer): Integer =3D=3D
&g= +t=3B >=3B>=3B if a >=3B 0 then
>=3B >=3B>=3B if a = +>=3B b then return foo(b=2Ca)
>=3B >=3B>=3B return foo(b-= +a=2Ca))
>=3B >=3B>=3B return b
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B= + >=3B>=3B Question: Does the program have a bug?
>=3B >=3B>=3B= +
>=3B >=3B>=3B Ralf
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Yes: there = +is an extra parenthesis in the fourth line... :)
>=3B >=3B
>= +=3B >=3B Which=2C BTW=2C I discovered as soon as I pasted it in a file si= +nce it was
>=3B >=3B error-highlighted by the syntax highlighting in= + vim :))
>=3B
>=3B Well=2C you caught me=2C so I try again. =3B-= +)
>=3B And... the problem is be no means specific to AXIOM.
>=3B = +
>=3B foo(a: Integer=2C b: Integer): Integer =3D=3D
>=3B if a= + >=3B 0 then
>=3B if a >=3B b then return foo(b=2Ca)
&g= +t=3B return foo(b-a=2Ca)
>=3B return b
>=3B
>= +=3B Question: Does the program have a bug?
>=3B =3B

= +

I think that your question is related to the fact= + that if we don't know the purpose of a function then we cannot know if the= +re is a bug in the function.
And LP would explain the purpose of = +the function.

 =3BI am 100% in agreement with = +LP.

when I was teaching C C++ I was always repeati= +ng to my students that when you comment a line or section of code  =3B"= +don't tell me the this code copies the value in y to x (x=3Dy)  =3Bbut = +tell me why that section of code is there."

 = +=3BI think that one of the posters is really missing the point of proper do= +cumentation=2C when he said that the comments are useless because he can al= +ways read the code. The comments are not there to explain what the code doe= +s on that low of a level=2C but why is it there and what is its overall pur= +pose=2C and why I did it that way and not some other way.
Just my 2 cents worth.

PS I have many = +chunks of code that I wrote 20-30 years ago and I have no idea why and what= + the code was written for!!!! even after reading each line of the code!!!!<= +/div>

+= + +--_7bcb012f-4217-42b8-b2cd-efb89ccc5371_-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 13:25:30 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnWkE-0007Nd-06 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:25:30 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43501) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnWk6-0007NU-Td + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:25:28 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnWk1-0002jO-Ej + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:25:22 -0400 +Received: from mail-ee0-x229.google.com ([2a00:1450:4013:c00::229]:51741) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) + id 1WnWk1-0002j6-4K + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:25:17 -0400 +Received: by mail-ee0-f41.google.com with SMTP id t10so2930007eei.28 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=unife.it; s=google; + h=from:date:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references + :user-agent:organization:mime-version:content-type; + bh=a00sr5qIVxLrj3+NXiyyEyTapd2uJDxDSMHLd991L+8=; + b=KEVsDDzEt5RgV0CoXcYpKLyJNrr9uvFd5Vd1tmqPX5WrWPx2cDggbiL75pkNcURr1i + yDlC/ojFzto1CyIxAwm7HeduNQ7BGy3W8ka3DIHtMXXoCtSHuG4E3AGRKe3f2ssqACOT + MTojCbfAE4kcWyYMQBWVPY9To99iw+8azYC1c= +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to + :message-id:references:user-agent:organization:mime-version + :content-type; + bh=a00sr5qIVxLrj3+NXiyyEyTapd2uJDxDSMHLd991L+8=; + b=fVoDkS6NnLTh5Cka/o64gjUuUOd4lIvnjOQx8PG+aL0PtCeFtEptWD5PZblqoQJgv+ + eXZXmq5c9Uc/P/wPXJn1/uCH3sARZ1SHIw1udsENI5qPx0UxO4vhlJgGtcm6Zb9zXGyr + I6csggDqmD6PG8ygMI70JISfGON8CpwvpXokqp07mRTWubTKU7+XJKqPuHHkZeKZziTd + 0ArTHpv+VIn1SBKGmV0A+UUnOZRkSGPM0ucC7T0M+LL4LcRJoUZQ16zSsRGsqyAPnpe0 + MiywVUOqpM0SLfcWVAfvxbIpRMxIbM4wpn2hOXwPBCOzmds4qjjiiEdsXZV82yDeEogZ + Ki3w== +X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnQZHb7t/5aMuhy82aO2IGvlbZ2e18T2DvsykGtgCphL0V/IsoX2pdMJinxvubtaKWxng8k +X-Received: by 10.14.104.200 with SMTP id i48mr236250eeg.24.1400779515897; + Thu, 22 May 2014 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT) +Received: from [10.10.10.23] (adsl-ull-204-231.42-151.net24.it. + [151.42.231.204]) + by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 44sm1877513eer.35.2014.05.22.10.25.14 + for + (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); + Thu, 22 May 2014 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT) +From: "Fabio S." +X-Google-Original-From: "Fabio S." +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 19:25:13 +0200 (CEST) +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: +Message-ID: +References: + <87k39e72y2.fsf@axiom-developer.org> + + <537DC608.9030300@hemmecke.org>, + , + <537DFE3B.10101@hemmecke.org> + +User-Agent: Alpine 2.10 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) +Organization: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Universit=E0_di_Ferrara?= +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4013:c00::229 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +Reply-To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 17:25:28 -0000 + + +... +>> And... the problem is be no means specific to AXIOM. +>> +>> foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == +>> if a > 0 then +>> if a > b then return foo(b,a) +>> return foo(b-a,a) +>> return b +>> +>> Question: Does the program have a bug? +>> +> +> I think that your question is related to the fact that if we don't know +> the purpose of a function then we cannot know if there is a bug in the +> function.And LP would explain the purpose of the function. +... + +My thought is that things are a little more complicated: you should +explain both the purpose of the function and how it is implemented. + +In this case, a little change in the "how" creates the problem: Ralf's +function is clearly an implementation of the original (and +inefficient) euclidean algorithm from the "Elements". +Yet it gives wrong results, since he changed deliberately domain and +codomain; for example, if a<0 then simply foo(a,b)=b. + +The point is that the proof in the Elements assumes that a,b are PI. +So to have a function without bugs either we need to change the domain to +PIxPI or we need to add two auxiliary variables +c:=abs(a) +d:=abs(b) +and then we work with them. + +This is what I meant when talking about documenting maths: it can look +correct from a syntactic point of view and can compile correctly, yet the +result can be wrong. If the underlying math is advanced, the debugging is +complicated by the fact that not a lot of people have the necessary +knowledge to track the function and find the error: if it is not well +documented, probably nobody will do it. + +> Just my 2 cents worth. + +and these are just mine... + +Fabio + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 13:37:16 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnWvc-0001DZ-72 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:37:16 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45823) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnWvR-00013X-Q9 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:37:14 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnWvJ-0006ld-Cr + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:37:05 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:38860 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnWvJ-0006kG-6x + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:36:57 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4MHarFI031524; + Thu, 22 May 2014 12:36:53 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id 1F29E686E9; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: Gregg Reynolds +Message-Id: <20140522173600.1F29E686E9@u1204> +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT) +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, clojure@googlegroups.com +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 17:37:14 -0000 + +Forward from Ralf Hemmecke: + + +On 05/22/2014 11:21 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote: +> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +> the largely useless commentary. + +That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +into any programming language. + +foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == + if a > 0 then + if a > b then return foo(b,a) + return foo(b-a,a)) + return b + +Question: Does the program have a bug? + +Ralf + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 14:47:53 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnY1x-0001lz-Dv + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:53 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59738) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnY1o-0001l8-PN + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:52 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnY1h-0000Fh-9j + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:44 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:43343 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnY1h-0000FS-3i + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:37 -0400 +Received: from u1204 (dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net + [72.23.235.203]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4MIlYFI031777; + Thu, 22 May 2014 13:47:34 -0500 +Received: by u1204 (Postfix, from userid 1000) + id 9702A686E9; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:46:51 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: +In-Reply-To: + (dastew@sympatico.ca) +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:46:51 -0400 +Message-ID: <87oaypfy78.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, clojure@googlegroups.com +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 18:47:52 -0000 + + +>PS I have many chunks of code that I wrote 20-30 years ago and I have no +>idea why and what the code was written for!!!! even after reading each +>line of the code!!!! + +This is what got me interested in literate programming. + +Axiom was written at IBM as "research code", mostly by people trying to +get a PhD. I wrote bits and pieces of the internals but didn't bother +to document anything, especially since I write "dirt simple code". + +Fifteen years later I'm looking at my own code. I know what it does. +I can even tell you what bytes the compiler will lay down in memory. +I know the code is needed since the system fails if I remove it. + +But I have no clue WHY I wrote it. + +The person who wrote the code failed to communicate with the person +who maintains the code. I have the misfortune of being both people. + +I understand the strong opposition to writing good documentation at any +level. Especially when writing code; it just seems wasteful to "state +the obvious". + +One non-obvious side effect of doing literate programming is that the +code quality improves a LOT. As Bill Hart said: + + Another thing I've been enjoying lately is literate programming. + Amazingly it turns out to be faster to write a literate program + than an ordinary program because debugging takes almost no time. + +I fear that we're going to have the same approach as the physicists. +"New theories get accepted when the previous generation dies out." + +Fortunately statistics show that programmers retire into management +at age 35 so we won't have to wait that long. If there is any justice, +the managers will have to hire noobs to maintain code they wrote so +they get to listen to the noobs trash talk about their code. :-) + +Tim Daly + + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 15:19:03 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnYW7-0005HJ-8r + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:19:03 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37117) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnYVz-0005Gq-39 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:19:02 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnYVr-0002tn-J1 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:18:55 -0400 +Received: from mail-pa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.220.61]:57702) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnYVr-0002th-Ah + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:18:47 -0400 +Received: by mail-pa0-f61.google.com with SMTP id ey11so963060pad.26 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:18:45 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject + :mime-version:content-type; + bh=M2PtFQEIwIbXQYlmB4BZEukTMbj+PTXOJiqn5EQDBMU=; + b=XgOamQ7aQpCot8ilp9LHEaHcrs5VaNvmBQvtXTtvdq1Wuse1BAnw/a5uHYOkUBymJm + dzgW6F0rd64nzV1g4YAiWD0aK013ywAD/csoIHYECrMxDAyhl/jYn+OktcziZYPuZxBa + MVN2/9GL3/w9tz685RnKKYvMSO0GnpH30487HE1cpoWYjiHX0RipF599l2z6XViJfSF+ + hwMQ534oe8nu/+Fg+Nzos2YTxBnj7BA7Y7vAhNjnkIRBYqMdz2BILzJXB2bWEy6DC8sL + jyZ+I0LgyV1gJqZvu2pp7ut3JEC1Ud900GYdvFbEV0VcWQJpFS3yQhpPWbiDGgT/9x9n + 2AFQ== +X-Received: by 10.140.101.111 with SMTP id t102mr1113973qge.5.1400786325828; + Thu, 22 May 2014 12:18:45 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-Doc-Id: b28d60627c3f8f21 +X-Google-Web-Client: true +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 12:18:44 -0700 (PDT) +From: Mars0i +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Message-Id: <3dbbb65c-146c-449b-a48f-d00f53a6dd23@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: <20140522173600.1F29E686E9@u1204> +References: <20140522173600.1F29E686E9@u1204> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: multipart/mixed; + boundary="----=_Part_3265_22772169.1400786324875" +X-Google-Token: EJSb-ZsFXFm8XMGJvOQ0 +X-Google-IP: 138.26.89.123 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 209.85.220.61 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, Gregg Reynolds +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 19:19:02 -0000 + +------=_Part_3265_22772169.1400786324875 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="----=_Part_3266_10006824.1400786324876" + +------=_Part_3266_10006824.1400786324876 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +Tim, + +Your project of LP'ing the Clojure internals is not at all inconsistent +with my view. That is code that would benefit from being widely +understood, even by people who won't maintain it. I learned a lot from +reading the "Lions" book on an early version of Unix, even though I +probably never even used hardware old enough to run it. (On the other +hand, I'm not sure that there should be documentation that explains the +complexities of the chunking mechanism both at the definitions of `map` and +`doseq`, for example. That seems redundant. Maybe LP software has +convenient ways of dealing with that sort of issue, though.) + +And I agree that won't can't know what code will live for 25 years, and +what won't, and how many people will have to maintain the code. So one +approach is simply to assume that all code will live a long time and be +maintained by many people, many of whom will be unfamiliar with the code. +But that means that you waste a lot of time on code that gets put aside +(for reasons other than lack of documentation). + +Yeah, there are tradeoffs. We have to make our best judgments. + +One option: Write with whatever documentation you think will help the +code's forseen uses. Then, if you discover later, that it needs better +documentation, write it then. That won't be as easy as writing it in the +first place: In hindsight, it's less efficient, but it may be more +efficient overall across all projects. (i.e. one "faults in" the +documentation: It's sometimes most efficient to allocate all of an +executable's image and heap as soon it runs, but modern OSes instead often +allocate memory only as needed, which, in hindsight, is less efficient, but +overall, makes for a more efficient system.) + +(I think I am the "Gary" mentioned above, although that isn't my name. But +I'm happy to take on that name in this discussion.) + +-Gary + +------=_Part_3266_10006824.1400786324876 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
Tim,

Your project of LP'ing the Clojure internals i= +s not at all  inconsistent with my view.  That is code that would= + benefit from being widely understood, even by people who won't maintain it= +.  I learned a lot from reading the "Lions" book on an early version o= +f Unix, even though I probably never even used hardware old enough to run i= +t.  (On the other hand, I'm not sure that there should be documentatio= +n that explains the complexities of the chunking mechanism both at the defi= +nitions of `map` and `doseq`, for example.  That seems redundant. = +; Maybe LP software has convenient ways of dealing with that sort of issue,= + though.)

And I agree that won't can't know what code will live for = +25 years, and what won't, and how many people will have to maintain the cod= +e.  So one approach is simply to assume that all code will live a long= + time and be maintained by many people, many of whom will be unfamiliar wit= +h the code.  But that means that you waste a lot of time on code that = +gets put aside (for reasons other than lack of documentation). 
Yeah, there are tradeoffs.  We have to make our best judgments.
<= +br>One option: Write with whatever documentation you think will help the co= +de's forseen uses.  Then, if you discover later, that it needs better = +documentation, write it then.  That won't be as easy as writing it in = +the first place: In hindsight, it's less efficient, but it may be more effi= +cient overall across all projects.  (i.e. one "faults in" the document= +ation: It's sometimes most efficient to allocate all of an executable's ima= +ge and heap as soon it runs, but modern OSes instead often allocate memory = +only as needed, which, in hindsight, is less efficient, but overall, makes = +for a more efficient system.)

(I think I am the "Gary" mentioned abo= +ve, although that isn't my name.  But I'm happy to take on that name i= +n this discussion.)

-Gary
+------=_Part_3266_10006824.1400786324876-- + +------=_Part_3265_22772169.1400786324875-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 18:21:02 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WnbME-0000R8-F5 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:21:02 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47730) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnbM6-0000Ns-PN + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:21:00 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnbLw-0005Fe-Nz + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:20:54 -0400 +Received: from mail-ig0-f185.google.com ([209.85.213.185]:50117) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnbLw-0005FE-Ho + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:20:44 -0400 +Received: by mail-ig0-f185.google.com with SMTP id h18so379205igc.2 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:20:40 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject + :mime-version:content-type; + bh=2EEg4Jhz1morNFM5wVqzIRV4oNAAggQQFPBd3FXr+wA=; + b=ATrzJqF+efiOa1u2G62tghB3dIxoB9URM+7rfn5/e1xrGcJea4vXU4itDSX5u2MwLf + IrD8HQggg9pQTdwMLtw1naxoYBvLorxUdMcOk5i3/6tZKZOctpkYycXGvMqnh4spLnei + ra8rIsFvaUhlmhOXw+N1by5+q7zIvk/z200jDXYkbDajymJmn1zO0d3ZGeHg4wVOR+3S + 8ZBkzpOtMjwC4F6UWV1+YxMbJmJasTMBgGWCMaReMIV9sgk8+tp/MmUqYVkp8mxULFP1 + s4U9HEqvY3qjxM/fHtnV4pady1LZbxCDHZEktVR7yG83iCq5ZXRwU9jggZUDMmiVi23g + FuMw== +X-Received: by 10.140.102.163 with SMTP id w32mr6900qge.39.1400797240810; + Thu, 22 May 2014 15:20:40 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-Doc-Id: 129544660dfd61a7 +X-Google-Web-Client: true +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:20:39 -0700 (PDT) +From: Mars0i +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Message-Id: <8ca28e5b-f04b-40a7-8bb5-21564eb40c53@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: +References: + (dastew@sympatico.ca)> <87oaypfy78.fsf@axiom-developer.org> + +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_14_19611541.1400797239507" +X-Google-Token: ELfw-ZsFvAR2O59EvGY0 +X-Google-IP: 138.26.89.123 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 209.85.213.185 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 22:21:01 -0000 + +------=_Part_14_19611541.1400797239507 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="----=_Part_15_5996547.1400797239508" + +------=_Part_15_5996547.1400797239508 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:05:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Johnson wrote: +> +> Hi folks, +> +> I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've +> posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one +> until now). +> + +I cede the name "Gary" to Gary. + + +> But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening +> to people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above. +> + +For my part, I have never intended to criticize LP per se. When it sounds +as if someone is arguing that everyone should use LP all the time (or +something similar), I sometimes object. + +------=_Part_15_5996547.1400797239508 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +
On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:05:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Johnson wrote:
Hi folks,

  I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one until now).

I cede the name "Gary" to Gary.
 
  But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening to people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above.

For my part, I have never intended to criticize LP per se.  When it sounds as if someone is arguing that everyone should use LP all the time (or something similar), I sometimes object.
+------=_Part_15_5996547.1400797239508-- + +------=_Part_14_19611541.1400797239507-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 20:14:43 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wnd8F-0005Gx-Q2 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 20:14:43 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34759) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WncjQ-00035A-9V + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 19:49:10 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WncjK-0006BJ-42 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 19:49:04 -0400 +Received: from mail-ig0-f188.google.com ([209.85.213.188]:54372) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WncjJ-0006BF-V8 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 19:48:58 -0400 +Received: by mail-ig0-f188.google.com with SMTP id hn18so2674igb.25 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:48:57 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject + :mime-version:content-type; + bh=zjLj+1A4yhre8DUsB/X0iDLQF3gPGCDKg3cMIY70nzI=; + b=fB2r6hQydZ/MPdWc7+v307Bq2flWp/cqMRQnTALjcBIhwvWjOU4cSMQLIi/LT3qTO4 + LLSMgeKcqTZV6HhQv50+hP4Bxsj7eHrqq2xsB2rrMk2oORpGEAZwfMaih4ZWII88fVlZ + O+BKehQhj1DXJdlWAdfPV1ad7LTrmrFsRBjpR9JNf5JPTW4w8rPzE0Sc1wg1LHiJSiYZ + nTL3DwNg4yErUyJD8CXv7i79TAtejyQflC7rxuTvO04QsRjnSlg+L5WimdJauwMrxerD + NQSuryktfDpw1izm3a+9ZLTxzDCdAt4RQjVzkhY/0ArF3uQxAKlQcz0CsA2caneUrDaI + IVWA== +X-Received: by 10.140.93.23 with SMTP id c23mr14930qge.14.1400802537019; + Thu, 22 May 2014 16:48:57 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-Doc-Id: 9a33382337fb2e76 +X-Google-Web-Client: true +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:48:56 -0700 (PDT) +From: Gary Johnson +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Message-Id: <81ab3a7b-1294-4c21-9190-6f3aacc77bee@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: <8ca28e5b-f04b-40a7-8bb5-21564eb40c53@googlegroups.com> +References: + (dastew@sympatico.ca)> <87oaypfy78.fsf@axiom-developer.org> + + <8ca28e5b-f04b-40a7-8bb5-21564eb40c53@googlegroups.com> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_94_11553793.1400802536337" +X-Google-Token: EOiZ-psFDBIV4KZRdBc0 +X-Google-IP: 71.169.145.56 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 209.85.213.188 +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:14:42 -0400 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 23:49:10 -0000 + +------=_Part_94_11553793.1400802536337 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="----=_Part_95_5110248.1400802536337" + +------=_Part_95_5110248.1400802536337 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +On Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:20:39 PM UTC-4, Mars0i wrote: +> +> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:05:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Johnson wrote: +>> +>> Hi folks, +>> +>> I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've +>> posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one +>> until now). +>> +> +> I cede the name "Gary" to Gary. +> + +No worries. You can be Gary too if you'd like. It's a passable name, all +things considered. ;-) + + +> +> +>> But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening +>> to people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above. +>> +> +> For my part, I have never intended to criticize LP per se. When it sounds +> as if someone is arguing that everyone should use LP all the time (or +> something similar), I sometimes object. +> + +Hey, point taken. I'm certainly not out to force LP on anyone. I'm just +here to soak up advice from the folks who have been using it for awhile. +I'm happy keeping the kool-aid to myself, so to speak. :-P + +------=_Part_95_5110248.1400802536337 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
On Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:20:39 PM UTC-4, Mars0i wrote:<= +blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord= +er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
On Thursday, M= +ay 22, 2014 4:05:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Johnson wrote:
Hi folks,

  I suspect I'm the Ga= +ry that Tim thought he was referring to since I've posted on several of his= + other LP-related threads (though not this one until now).

I cede the name "Gary" to Gary.

No worries. You can be Gary too if you'd like.= + It's a passable name, all things considered. ;-)
 
 
  But really, a= +t the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening to people razzing= + on LP for the reasons listed above.
For my part, I have never intended to criticize LP per se.  When it = +sounds as if someone is arguing that everyone should use LP all the time (o= +r something similar), I sometimes object.

Hey, point taken. I'm certainly not out to force LP on anyone. I'm jus= +t here to soak up advice from the folks who have been using it for awhile. = +I'm happy keeping the kool-aid to myself, so to speak. :-P
+------=_Part_95_5110248.1400802536337-- + +------=_Part_94_11553793.1400802536337-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 22 20:14:55 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wnd8R-0005M8-UQ + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 20:14:55 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34141) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnaBj-0004h5-6q + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 17:06:13 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnaBc-0006bs-Tc + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 17:06:07 -0400 +Received: from mail-ob0-f186.google.com ([209.85.214.186]:38061) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WnaBc-0006bN-N6 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 17:06:00 -0400 +Received: by mail-ob0-f186.google.com with SMTP id wp18so1021721obc.3 + for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject + :mime-version:content-type; + bh=n8t/GnbJYFNy/Ix/yxv82mde6QfHF6O+nxVki14IsCQ=; + b=DcYiaEAz8enBTQMQAe/gO1ImLqg0Ddtu97YleFIYhsplSRviBSZ7CxBrcyfEQyBpL1 + yx3UakubVy6viiW8dy25HBuA9HHjNLysUvnl98hME0pBCIzhZzKPYegyPkiodYfrEi1B + a5SaZfoc2sjDb8ooTskLM+lFa74xxmXOoinknvbOLNnn2GW+v1BsCCqs6m/PO28UZOql + NSwjX5Nl4/1muy4lxUrKA/xHdw4hKQoS6pWUf2rU1s2blR8d9nWTxSCrYyBJpLYKI7aD + QlgioSPyj6xttJQvbASF9WC3I4PxEoE+wD43jrtNzpaiW/d/sJJ6CuyLqD9tGtZURR+E + QGSw== +X-Received: by 10.140.95.141 with SMTP id i13mr4820qge.3.1400792759564; + Thu, 22 May 2014 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) +X-Google-Doc-Id: 959c9b23f59ecf01 +X-Google-Web-Client: true +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:05:58 -0700 (PDT) +From: Gary Johnson +To: clojure@googlegroups.com +Message-Id: +In-Reply-To: <87oaypfy78.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +References: + (dastew@sympatico.ca)> <87oaypfy78.fsf@axiom-developer.org> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_4_21612087.1400792758737" +X-Google-Token: ELbN-ZsFP_TXWab9smo0 +X-Google-IP: 71.169.145.56 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] + [fuzzy] +X-Received-From: 209.85.214.186 +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:14:54 -0400 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, + and communication +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 21:06:14 -0000 + +------=_Part_4_21612087.1400792758737 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="----=_Part_5_7635472.1400792758737" + +------=_Part_5_7635472.1400792758737 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + +Hi folks, + + I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've +posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one +until now). I'm reading along and enjoying the back and forth as usual, but +I'm sorry to say that I don't have much to add to this philosophical +swordfight. + + As I've stated on other threads, I find LP quite useful to me, both in +helping me remember later what my old code does (and WHY I wrote it that +way in the first place) as well as helping me to write clearer and more +parsimonious code in the first place (since I don't want to document a +crazy web of unnecessary complexity if I can avoid it). All in all, my +personal LP journey has been an interesting and reasonably productive one. +And of course, using an expressive functional language like Clojure does +allow me to keep my code snippets shorter and more isolated from one +another. All good things for LP as well. + + I know that Tim likes to poke the mailing list occasionally and remind +people that LP is the bee's knees and that they should really get on board +with it. I also know that without fail one or more folks will quickly +respond that LP doesn't provide enough value above docstrings, inline +comments, autogenerated API docs, and the occasional blog post to invest +the necessary time in developing new LP-mindful workflows. And, of course, +someone will inevitably chime in with the rally cry "clear code doesn't +need documentation". + + I understand that really embracing LP does require relearning how to +program in several fundamental respects, AND it makes it quite difficult to +use many of the developer tools many folks in the Clojure community have +come to rely on. This makes the task appear somewhere between challenging +and onerous to many programmers (or so I would imagine from following Tim's +threads over the past year). However, (speaking only for myself here) I +think the maintenance benefits often outweigh the upfront investment for +any piece of software I intend to keep around for more than a few months. +So for me, it's a net good. For some folks it's not. I get that. Enough +said. + + But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening to +people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above. There ARE good tools out +there for doing this kind of programming. People just have to invest time +and energy into learning them. I regularly cite Emacs' Org-mode as +providing most everything you might need to comfortably create LP programs +without even writing one line of LaTeX or XML (if you're allergic to those +languages). Obviously, as Tim points out, it's an almost trivial assignment +to roll your own tangle and weave scripts in whatever language you like +(and I've tried that route too). So guys, if you don't like the ideas +behind LP or just feel like it is too much of a hassle to use, then I +completely understand that you don't want to use it. But could we maybe +call a truce on this mailing list on the topic? + + Perhaps instead of constantly being pulled into philosophical arguments, +those of us who actually do enjoy exploring LP could then use this forum to +discuss amongst ourselves what tools or references we are finding useful in +our journey. Clearly some folks (Gregg included) are churning out some +pretty neat looking tools to make LP easier to do in the Clojure world. I +for one would love to see more lively discussion around that and not feel +like we're just bear-baiting whenever we mention the forbidden paradigm of +Literate Programming. + + My 2c, + ~ (the actual) Gary + + +------=_Part_5_7635472.1400792758737 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +
Hi folks,

  I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim th= +ought he was referring to since I've posted on several of his other LP-rela= +ted threads (though not this one until now). I'm reading along and enjoying= + the back and forth as usual, but I'm sorry to say that I don't have much t= +o add to this philosophical swordfight.

  As I've stated on oth= +er threads, I find LP quite useful to me, both in helping me remember later= + what my old code does (and WHY I wrote it that way in the first place) as = +well as helping me to write clearer and more parsimonious code in the first= + place (since I don't want to document a crazy web of unnecessary complexit= +y if I can avoid it). All in all, my personal LP journey has been an intere= +sting and reasonably productive one. And of course, using an expressive fun= +ctional language like Clojure does allow me to keep my code snippets shorte= +r and more isolated from one another. All good things for LP as well.
  I know that Tim likes to poke the mailing list occasionally and re= +mind people that LP is the bee's knees and that they should really get on b= +oard with it. I also know that without fail one or more folks will quickly = +respond that LP doesn't provide enough value above docstrings, inline comme= +nts, autogenerated API docs, and the occasional blog post to invest the nec= +essary time in developing new LP-mindful workflows. And, of course, someone= + will inevitably chime in with the rally cry "clear code doesn't need docum= +entation".

  I understand that really embracing LP does require= + relearning how to program in several fundamental respects, AND it makes it= + quite difficult to use many of the developer tools many folks in the Cloju= +re community have come to rely on. This makes the task appear somewhere bet= +ween challenging and onerous to many programmers (or so I would imagine fro= +m following Tim's threads over the past year). However, (speaking only for = +myself here) I think the maintenance benefits often outweigh the upfront in= +vestment for any piece of software I intend to keep around for more than a = +few months. So for me, it's a net good. For some folks it's not. I get that= +. Enough said.

  But really, at the end of the day, I'm just ge= +tting tired of listening to people razzing on LP for the reasons listed abo= +ve. There ARE good tools out there for doing this kind of programming. Peop= +le just have to invest time and energy into learning them. I regularly cite= + Emacs' Org-mode as providing most everything you might need to comfortably= + create LP programs without even writing one line of LaTeX or XML (if you'r= +e allergic to those languages). Obviously, as Tim points out, it's an almos= +t trivial assignment to roll your own tangle and weave scripts in whatever = +language you like (and I've tried that route too). So guys, if you don't li= +ke the ideas behind LP or just feel like it is too much of a hassle to use,= + then I completely understand that you don't want to use it. But could we m= +aybe call a truce on this mailing list on the topic?

  Perhaps = +instead of constantly being pulled into philosophical arguments, those of u= +s who actually do enjoy exploring LP could then use this forum to discuss a= +mongst ourselves what tools or references we are finding useful in our jour= +ney. Clearly some folks (Gregg included) are churning out some pretty neat = +looking tools to make LP easier to do in the Clojure world. I for one would= + love to see more lively discussion around that and not feel like we're jus= +t bear-baiting whenever we mention the forbidden paradigm of Literate Progr= +amming.

  My 2c,
    ~ (the actual) Gary
<= +br>
+------=_Part_5_7635472.1400792758737-- + +------=_Part_4_21612087.1400792758737-- + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 05:01:06 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WoqmI-0005El-OM + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:01:06 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39440) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WoqmC-00058t-Pu + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:01:04 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Woqm8-0007mp-41 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:01:00 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:52083 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Woqm7-0007mf-NH + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:00:56 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4Q90pFI013033; + Mon, 26 May 2014 04:00:51 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4Q90onI013030; + Mon, 26 May 2014 04:00:50 -0500 +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 04:00:50 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405260900.s4Q90onI013030@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: daly@axiom-develoer.org, Douglas Troeger +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 09:01:05 -0000 + +One of Axiom's project goals involves proofs of the computational +mathematics. + +In plan, but not yet attacked, is the question of proving Axiom. +Axiom claims to be "computational mathematics", after all. + +This raises a lot of thought bubbles, but most interesting to me at +the moment is what the goal means. There seems to be several +interpretations and my shower committee (i.e. what I mutter to myself +about in the shower) seems unfocused. The top level question is: + + What would it mean to prove Axiom correct? + +The first interpretation is computational. + +The second interpretation is mathematical. + +The third interpretation is both computational and mathematical. + +Consider these in order. From a computational point of view Axiom is a +big lisp program. It implements a domain specific language called Spad +which compiles to lisp programs. ACL2 [0] is ideal for proving +programs at this level. ACL2 is also a lisp program and could easily be +co-resident with Axiom in a lisp image. Models can be defined and +proved to have certain properties. The lisp code could be decorated +with theorems and lemmas. This would make it possible to bring much +more rigor to the implementation. It provides an opportunity to define +a model for interpreting and compiling Spad which can be used to check +the implementation. + +>From a mathematical point of view, Axiom is an implementation of +abstract-algebra-like categories and domains. One could consider +decorating the Spad algebra code with axioms (e.g. the abelian +group axioms) and theorems. COQ [1] seems ideal for proving Spad +code at some level of abstraction. Of course, Spad's view of +algebra differs somewhat from the abstract algebra scaffold. +Proving an algorithm (e.g. finding primes) over all possible +domains is really a non-trivial task. + +>From a computational and mathematical point of view, there is what +I call the "kittens" problem, as in, "it is kittens all the way down" +(cause, yaknow, the internet doesn't like turtles). What does it mean +to prove something in Axiom? Is doesn't seem sufficient to prove that +the interpreter/compiler provide a correct translation of Spad. Nor +does it seem sufficient to prove that a Spad domain properly preserves +the commutative property. + +What I'd like to achieve (and, given that we are just starting toward +a 30 year horizon we have plenty of time), is some confidence that +Axiom programs can be used with some reasonable degree of assurance +that it does what it says on the tin. At the moment, computational +mathematics seems to "float" on nothing. + +I am deeply unhappy with the current state of the art. The current +state makes it hard for a computer scientist to see where the +interpreter/compiler needs work. The current state makes it hard for a +mathematician to see where integration needs work. That we are decades +into the collision of mathematics and computers yet have no standards +of proof is, to my mind, unacceptable. + +The computer scientist side of me wants some form of non-computational +model of the interpreter/compiler. The mathematician side of me wants +some convergence of the algebra and mathematics. + +We can do better. In fact, any attempt at all would be better. +Even if nothing were formally proved I'm sure the side-effect would +be a better, more trustworthy Axiom, which is a worthwhile goal. + +Nobody wants their "Ph.D recalled" due to a bug in Axiom. :-) + +Excelsior! +Tim Daly + +[0] Kaufmann, Matt; Moore, J Strother + ACL2 Version 6.4 + http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~moore/acl2 + +[1] various + The Coq Proof Assistant + http://coq.inria.fr + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 10:29:21 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wovtw-0005DO-PM + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 10:29:20 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46942) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wovtn-0005CQ-Du + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 10:29:18 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wovtf-00063H-Ux + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 10:29:11 -0400 +Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.24]:63035) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wovtf-00062y-M4 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 10:29:03 -0400 +Received: from [192.168.1.64] ([94.195.43.136]) + by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreue101) with ESMTP (Nemesis) + id 0MhUQs-1XAKP12G8o-00MfDX; Mon, 26 May 2014 16:29:01 +0200 +Message-ID: <53834F7C.5050806@martinb.com> +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 15:28:12 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +Organization: axiom +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; + rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +References: <201405260900.s4Q90onI013030@axiom-developer.org> +In-Reply-To: <201405260900.s4Q90onI013030@axiom-developer.org> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:Fa1EYoojDbGDAwp0XWC/7lvQqfrb0jKMHg7RI4tE9Vc + bhPLJuCAfA6+MfubzSI0ypnCpo2nEv9ftrLleAnn/1wbP3AlaN + fWDktOdTQuG4+MwmoqQ/ITEu7TzE7RLYBQwIQuacFqdo6xaUni + z+Ljmxw+0ePRxbMvEMXvt4SehUSFGE1dSL0Tku7dhjw5yW4F7l + +8B06OWpZqnH9tELyJJ9Lyzm4TXoq+aXnLVVztToE6z5lelsgf + 7FTCHOf2TjaJpL+3+0+U04YjeGNFfFWRBHEa/GzxxyiP/qbmFi + XI9YuVNWmu7SrSjiyk0uD8JXFprz7FpnHjO8DQcrgmftsDfpFs + IOXApHjLRFdj4XcJjqNrW8/Enr/3tZtw5wmtDIRH8 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] +X-Received-From: 212.227.17.24 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, + and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 14:29:19 -0000 + +Tim, + +Yes, I think it would be really good if Axiom could live up to its name +and include axioms. + +It seems to me that categories in Axiom are mostly about function +signatures (I know I'm vastly oversimplifying here) but they would be +more like the mathematical concepts they represent if they included axioms? + +Are you talking about two different types of capability here: +* Proof Assistants like 'Coq' or 'Isabelle'. +* Algebraic Specification Languages like 'CASL'. +Does ACL2 fit into this distinction? + +So I'm thinking that proof assistance are based on rules and driven by +human input and algebraic Specification Languages are based on axioms +and provide some level of automatic checking, although I guess there is +some overlap? + +I get the impression that Axiomatic systems are problematic in that a +single error allows you to prove anything (true=false) and, as you have +pointed out to me, rule based systems are difficult to debug. + +Even so, I think that the addition of axioms into categories would be a +big benefit, even it it was only initially used for human readers and +some automated checking. + +The choice of what rules to call axioms may be arbitrary but there are +all sorts of choices that have to be made when supporting an algebra, +like notation and which algorithm to use, which don't follow +automatically from the mathematics. + +> What would it mean to prove Axiom correct? + +I get the impression that, at some level a computer program is only an +approximation to mathematics (float approximates to reals and so on). +Issues with proving code(algorithms) - 'halting problem'. Despite these +limits to a complete proof of the whole program, there is a lot that can +be done at a higher level if axioms were included in the program. + +So I think this sort of capability would be really good, I'm just too +impatient to wait 30 years. + +Martin + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 12:26:59 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Woxjn-0002ej-Lx + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 12:26:59 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43272) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Woxjg-0002dX-TF + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 12:26:57 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Woxjc-0005aE-2F + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 12:26:52 -0400 +Received: from hera.math.uni.wroc.pl ([156.17.86.1]:51032) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Woxjb-0005S7-Sm + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 12:26:48 -0400 +Received: from hebisch by hera.math.uni.wroc.pl with local (Exim 4.80) + (envelope-from ) id 1WoxjO-00080S-AR + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 18:26:34 +0200 +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 18:26:34 +0200 (CEST) +In-Reply-To: <201405260900.s4Q90onI013030@axiom-developer.org> +X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL8] +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: +From: Waldek Hebisch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x +X-Received-From: 156.17.86.1 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, + and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 16:26:57 -0000 + +Tim Daly wrote: +> +> One of Axiom's project goals involves proofs of the computational +> mathematics. +> +> In plan, but not yet attacked, is the question of proving Axiom. +> Axiom claims to be "computational mathematics", after all. +> +> This raises a lot of thought bubbles, but most interesting to me at +> the moment is what the goal means. There seems to be several +> interpretations and my shower committee (i.e. what I mutter to myself +> about in the shower) seems unfocused. The top level question is: +> +> What would it mean to prove Axiom correct? + + +That is pretty clear: there is algebra, there is interpreter +there is compiler. For algebra one needs to specify what +each function is supposed to do and prove it. There are +well-known notations for specifications and proofs, for +example Hoare triples. Proof rules depend on language +used, but from point of view of proofs Spad is quite +conventianal imperative language, with a little syntatic +sugar for few constructs, so writing proof rules for +Spad is not hard. Spad supports rich values (arrays, lists, +functions, types), so axiom for values will require +work. Then one needs to prove compiler correct, for +this one needs specify meaning of output. If the output +is Lisp, we need proof rules for Lisp, and we need to +prove that proof rules used for algebra are satisfied. +Finally we need some specification for interpreter +and we need to prove that interpreter satisfies this +specification. + +The real question is how to do this. Several years ago +my student did "by hand" a proof in Hoare logic of a simple 20 +line long program. The proof is 20 pages long. The proof +is rather detailed, but he consided some facts as known +and some readers probably would ask questions demanding +more details. While this is small sample it clearly +shows that doing proofs by hand is huge task and we +are unlikely to ever have needed resources. Obvious +answer lies in automation. But even with automation +this is still large task: the L4 operation system +kernel is clained to be proved correct with mechanically +verifed proof. But that required about 8 lines of +proof annotations per line of executable code. +For me this is still too big to even start. IMO +proving correctness will be reasible with better +proof assistants. And there are signs that such +assistants may appear pretty soon (there was large +progress in last few years). + +Let me repeat: it is not a question of what a proof is. +Already Turing around 1946 gave apropriate notion of proof. +The question is how. + +BTW: Some people want proof to have be "certain" that +progam works. Of course to get valid conclusion we +would have to prove lower layers. I consider this +out of scope, but you may wish to prove that Lisp +implementation is correct in terms of machine +instructions and that logic of processor correctly +implements machine level. We would also like to +have some assurance that gates do what they are +supposed to do. Now, correctenss of gates is physics, +not math. Correctness of processor is rather hard +to establish, because internal design is kept +secret. But above what proof means is clear and +methods are known -- it is "only" problem of +huge effort needed for such work. + + +-- + Waldek Hebisch +hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 15:15:50 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wp0NB-0001lk-Sq + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 15:15:49 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47438) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp0N4-0001hF-0O + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 15:15:48 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp0Mx-0001vZ-BO + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 15:15:41 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:33808 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp0Mx-0001vB-44 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 15:15:35 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4QJFQFI014507; + Mon, 26 May 2014 14:15:26 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4QJFPKt014504; + Mon, 26 May 2014 14:15:25 -0500 +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 14:15:25 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405261915.s4QJFPKt014504@axiom-developer.org> +To: Waldek Hebisch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 19:15:48 -0000 + +Waldek, + +>The real question is how to do this. Several years ago +>my student did "by hand" a proof in Hoare logic of a simple 20 +>line long program. The proof is 20 pages long. The proof +>is rather detailed, but he consided some facts as known +>and some readers probably would ask questions demanding +>more details. + +Was this proof published anywhere? Do you have a URL? + +Tim + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 22:08:30 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wp6oX-0007LY-RY + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 22:08:29 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42295) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp6oU-0007Kw-Ts + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 22:08:27 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp6oT-0005tY-7p + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 22:08:26 -0400 +Received: from mail-ob0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22c]:58047) + by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp6oT-0005sb-3a + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 22:08:25 -0400 +Received: by mail-ob0-f172.google.com with SMTP id wp18so8694520obc.31 + for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 19:08:24 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; + bh=I9ixBOr/ShCyBzLyBSOmlWqUXWGKrLpxa9DJa7dsCP8=; + b=VBYdwu0FjUXNhTEQt6aoWM23jgij0b1wkOttcK3r91S4CWCLpJyAkaXbMC3FSYbC/q + 44eY+O8XWSj7wI3VZBZRFA7bknvlzWOXNmJ7ZRbgC04xSjD/D7Eh/Nst/R/6OOg091GM + vkd2EmtOSwpaFDvS7obnAJCw9Nt/xOxvs5UoJk/l4kWhIRceW5tGV/RWXJm/AcvBO7OI + E3zfUwCSRtGoPruRFYLENEK+bqlennCQV58nebM3x0jhaDgFvAonsjt6K7A12Ut2KcFT + V24APQc9NgmfKlbUe12/cPSQ7zce4NSokYgFwIbiI4bKkF7gvKHQL33IaYvfQa7WSkVF + HjrQ== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.182.227.197 with SMTP id sc5mr29384281obc.18.1401156504051; + Mon, 26 May 2014 19:08:24 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.76.29.39 with HTTP; Mon, 26 May 2014 19:08:23 -0700 (PDT) +Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 10:08:23 +0800 +Message-ID: +From: jiazhaoconga +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address + (bad octet value). +X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22c +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, + and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 02:08:27 -0000 + +I have some experience with ACL2, ACL2 uses a very small subset +of common lisp, there are no side effects and no higher order +functions, although Axiom is written in a pretty small subset of CL, it +will be very difficult or require unimaginable mount of work to prove +"the Spad compiler is correct" (this Axiom implementation of Spad +language compiler agrees with Spad language specification). + +As for the second interpretation, I am not familiar with Coq. I can +only mention about PVS [1], a common lisp theorem prover but +unlike ACL2 which is first-order and weak typing, PVS and Coq are +high-order and strong typing. But I am not familiar with PVS either. + +[1] PVS http://pvs.csl.sri.com/ + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 23:30:30 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wp85t-0003YP-T3 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:30:29 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52487) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp85l-0003Nn-Ve + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:30:28 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp85f-0006jb-SF + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:30:21 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:39577 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp85f-0006jV-NJ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:30:15 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4R3UCFI014981; + Mon, 26 May 2014 22:30:12 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4R3UC4n014978; + Mon, 26 May 2014 22:30:12 -0500 +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 22:30:12 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405270330.s4R3UC4n014978@axiom-developer.org> +To: jiazhaoconga +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] PVS +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 03:30:28 -0000 + +Thanks. I had not heard of PVS but I will look into it. + +I have used ACL2 in the distant past and will have to get up +to speed on it again. I've downloaded and built the latest version. + +I know that ACL2 is not capable of handling a Spad compiler but one +has to start somewhere. The important point, in my mind, is the focus +on some sort of proof in the long term. We really need to have a +higher standard for computational mathematics, and, as they say, +"If not us, who? If not now, when?". + +Matt Kaufmann and J Moore have always been quite helpful in the +past. I suspect they would be interested in any work we do in +this area. + +Tim Daly + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 23:39:58 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wp8F4-0007eg-RR + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:39:58 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53718) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp8Ex-0007Wk-KQ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:39:57 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp8Er-0000pk-Fs + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:39:51 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:42602 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp8Er-0000oF-AI + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:39:45 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4R3dfFI014992; + Mon, 26 May 2014 22:39:41 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4R3dfH6014989; + Mon, 26 May 2014 22:39:41 -0500 +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 22:39:41 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405270339.s4R3dfH6014989@axiom-developer.org> +To: Waldek Hebisch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, + and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 03:39:57 -0000 + +>This was "Master Thesis", unpublished and in Polish. This +>is work that students are supposed to do to get finish +>their study and get Master degree. Most of the work +>presents material from literature, the proof is original. +>I can send you a .ps file if you want. + +My command of English is marginal at best. I'm sure that a +thesis written in Polish would exceed my abilities. Thanks +anyway. + +If your student referenced any interesting work in English +in the bibliography I'd appreciate the reference. I think I +need to research a range of existing work. + +Tim + + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 26 23:47:24 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1Wp8MG-0000z0-Oi + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:47:24 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54467) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp8M9-0000yX-L2 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:47:23 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp8M3-0003J6-E1 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:47:17 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:55342 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1Wp8M3-0003Iz-7Q + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 23:47:11 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4R3lAFI015003; + Mon, 26 May 2014 22:47:10 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4R3lAYc015000; + Mon, 26 May 2014 22:47:10 -0500 +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 22:47:10 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405270347.s4R3lAYc015000@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, + and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 03:47:23 -0000 + + + "The society of scientists, the community of scientists, has + this advantage, that from the moment we enter it, we all know + that fifty years from now, most of the things we learned here + will turn out not to have been quite right." + + -- Jacob Bronowski, Silliman lectures, Yale 1967 + + + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 27 13:39:16 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WpLLI-0007LR-3x + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Tue, 27 May 2014 13:39:16 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58109) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WpLL8-0007Gx-45 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 27 May 2014 13:39:13 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WpLL0-0002zh-HS + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 27 May 2014 13:39:06 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:47872 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WpLL0-0002zb-CK + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 27 May 2014 13:38:58 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4RHcqFI016377; + Tue, 27 May 2014 12:38:52 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4RHcpuD016374; + Tue, 27 May 2014 12:38:51 -0500 +Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 12:38:51 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405271738.s4RHcpuD016374@axiom-developer.org> +To: Waldek Hebisch +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, + and correctness +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 17:39:14 -0000 + +Waldek, + +Thanks for the references. +Oddly, many of them are from my graduate course :-) + +Tim + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 30 01:02:00 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WqEx6-0003uh-F8 + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 01:02:00 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57798) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WqEwz-0003uW-KY + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 01:01:59 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WqEwt-0000BI-Fy + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 01:01:53 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:40110 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WqEwt-0000B1-AQ + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 01:01:47 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4U51iFI027503; + Fri, 30 May 2014 00:01:44 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4U51h85027500; + Fri, 30 May 2014 00:01:43 -0500 +Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 00:01:43 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405300501.s4U51h85027500@axiom-developer.org> +To: Lawrence Bottorff +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Books versus "Tunneling" +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 05:01:59 -0000 + +Lawrence, + +I copied portions of your email to the mailing list along with my +reply. I hope you don't mind. + +>I just watched your talk "Literate Programming in the Large" on YouTube. +>I've been investigating literate programming for a bit now, and I've come +>up with a term for non-literate programming: I call it "tunneling." Imagine +>you're a programmer doing your regular programming thing, writing code all +>the live-long day -- and not doing it in any sort of literate way. I say +>that's the same as some mole or miner digging a tunnel. Either the tunnel +>collapses right behind the mindless digger diggings -- or the software is +>actually used and the tunnel doesn't collapse right away, i.e., there's +>traffic in the tunnel. For example, Windows XP is a big, wide tunnel . . . +>that is now beginning to rapidly collapse. Soon enough there will maybe be +>a depression in the ground. "XP was down there." So yes, eventually all +>non-literate software is just so much tunneling that eventually collapses. +>You might argue that "open source" software is not such a tunnel. Maybe. +>But who reads code besides a very rare few? And like you said in your talk, +>code is notoriously difficult to fathom, especially if some "153" crops up. + +Actually, you're the second quote on Axiom's documentation page. See +http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/documentation.html + + + + +>A well-written book, on the other hand, is at the very least a dialogue +>with yourself. Consider what I've done in the past: SQL database. I +>typically would crank around with SQL snippets until I got the database +>where I wanted it, or some output/report generated. But all the steps I had +>taken were lost! Better it would have been if I had been typing an "SQL +>blog" with the SQL code embedded in the text where I describe my process. +>"Dear diary. . ." + +I don't know if a diary is the best analogy. The best book I've seen +so far is Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Based Rendering". It contains +all the source code, properly explains the theory, and is exceptionally +well cross-referenced and indexed. The BOOK won an academy award. If +you haven't seen it, buy it. Believe me, you'll be amazed. + +I have to say, they have really "raised the bar" of what I expect a +good literate program to be. They explain the theory, show the math, +and have numerous diagrams. Axiom has a new standard of excellence. + +If Axiom were documented as well as the Pharr/Humphreys book I am +certain that it would be used to teach computational mathematics at +both undergraduate and graduate levels. I can even see a sub-department +of "computational mathematics". There is, of course, the minor detail +of actually documenting the system :-) + +Greg Humphreys, one of the authors, and Paul C. Agnostopoulos, the +author of zzTek, which is the tool used, have both given me the +tooling they used to create the book. I hope to use at least some of +it in Axiom. Paul formats books professionally (windfall.com). + + + + + + +>I so much agree with you about literate programming. I don't get much +>buy-in; many think I'm just a crackpot. Alas, but I think it's the real +>wave of the future. A book is meant to be read. Coding is just tunneling. +>Think of all the ga-zillions of lines of code that is buried in all those +>tunnels! + +Yeah. There is a saying in physics. "New theories are accepted once the +previous generation dies". John Kitchin at CMU is teaching the new +generation to write literate programs. Once everyone over 30 dies we +can flush all the non-literate, abandoned piles of code in github, +sourceforge, savannah, etc. and get on with the business of +communication. + +At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it :-) + + + + + +>Two questions: Have you ever seen the outline style Buckminster Fuller used +>in "Synergetics?" Each outline point makes fairly self-contained statement. +>Here's the table of contents: + +No, I haven't seen that book. I'll put it on the queue. Thanks. + + + + + +>And, have you seen Emacs org-mode? It has a built-in literate capability. + +I sat in on Kitchin's class where he is teaching students using literate +programming. He is using org-mode. + +It was really interesting in that NOBODY was taking notes. Not a single +pen or piece of paper anywhere. No typing on their laptops. John taught +from his emacs buffer, displayed on an overhead. Everything he taught +was in the buffer. He could execute code, update tables, show graphs. +He could edit changes into the document based on student questions. + +At the end of class, all students had the latest set of notes and +all of the executable code already on their laptops. He is working to +spread this kind of teaching across all of the compsci, math, chemE, +and other departments. Frankly, I think it changes the game but I'm +already a convert. + + + +>Also, I'm using Ubuntu and I see there is an "axiom" and an "open-axiom" in +>the package manager. Which do I want? Or should I just grab it from the +>site? + +Axiom is this project. Executables are available at +http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/download.html + +If you want to compile and/or develop Axiom system code there are +instructions of which packages to apt-get. + +Tim Daly + + +From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 30 13:12:50 2014 +Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) + id 1WqQMM-0005iF-QD + for mharc-axiom-developer@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:12:50 -0400 +Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41332) + by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WqQMC-0005fx-Un + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:12:48 -0400 +Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WqQM4-0002gZ-7o + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:12:40 -0400 +Received: from vs338.rosehosting.com ([209.135.140.38]:60224 + helo=axiom-developer.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) + (envelope-from ) id 1WqQM4-0002gN-2U + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:12:32 -0400 +Received: from axiom-developer.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s4UHCTFI020530; + Fri, 30 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +Received: (from daly@localhost) + by axiom-developer.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id s4UHCThZ020527; + Fri, 30 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +Message-Id: <201405301712.s4UHCThZ020527@axiom-developer.org> +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) + [generic] +X-Received-From: 209.135.140.38 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Axiom and proofs +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: +List-Post: +List-Help: +List-Subscribe: , + +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 17:12:48 -0000 + +I picked up two books that seem to be useful in the task of trying +to prove at least one algorithm in Axiom "correct", for some +philosophical version of correct. + +I'd really like to show an automated proof of Axiom's GCD algorithm. +Pointers to published work on GCD proofs would be really useful. + +Yves and Pierre [0] has a whole chapter on "Infinite Objects and +Proofs" with a section on co-inductive types (streams, lazy lists, +lazy binary trees). + +Chandy and Misra [1] has a section on prime number generation by sieving. + +Suggestions of other reading material is most welcome. + +[0] Bertot, Yves; Casteran, Pierre + "Interactive Theorem Proving and Program Development" + ISBN 3-540-20854-2 + +[1] Chandy, Mani ; Misra, Jayadev + "Parallel Program Design" + ISBN 0-201-05866-9 + + diff --git a/book/2014-05.txt b/book/2014-05.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..8edb9c4 --- /dev/null +++ b/book/2014-05.txt @@ -0,0 +1,2655 @@ +\start +Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 13:16:19 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: ist +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... + +With respect to "documentation" of open source software... + +"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it +means." -- "The Princess Bride" + +The notion that "reading the code" is the ultimate truth for +"documentation" is based on a misunderstanding at so many levels it is +hard to explain. In fact, most of the ideas don't begin to cover +"documenting the system". Fortunately, Robert Lefkowitz absolutely +illuminates the scope of the problem in these delightful talks. + +For those who have not heard it, this is truly a treat. +For those who "document" this is a must-hear. + +Robert Lefkowitz -- The Semasiology of Open Source +http://web.archive.org/web/20130729214526id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail169.html +http://web.archive.org/web/20130729210039id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail662.html + +\start +Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 12:43:52 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... + +There is a 3rd part to this series. Enjoy... + +Robert Lefkowitz -- The Semasiology of Open Source (part 3) + +http://daviding.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/robert-lefkowitz-the-semasiology-of-open-source-part-iii-oscon-2007-it-conversations-20060726/ + +\start +Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 15:38:27 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: Bill Naylor +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Polynomial GCD code + +Do you have a copy of your thesis code in Axiom? +If so, can I have a copy to try to incorporate into Axiom? + +\start +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 09:56:50 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... + +On 09/05/14 18:16, Tim Daly wrote: +> With respect to "documentation" of open source software... +> +> "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it +> means." -- "The Princess Bride" +> +> The notion that "reading the code" is the ultimate truth for +> "documentation" is based on a misunderstanding at so many levels it is +> hard to explain. In fact, most of the ideas don't begin to cover +> "documenting the system". Fortunately, Robert Lefkowitz absolutely +> illuminates the scope of the problem in these delightful talks. +> +> For those who have not heard it, this is truly a treat. +> For those who "document" this is a must-hear. +> +> Robert Lefkowitz -- The Semasiology of Open Source +> http://web.archive.org/web/20130729214526id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail169.html +> http://web.archive.org/web/20130729210039id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail662.html + +So what should one do if one wants to modify parts of Axiom (or its +forks) where all there is is the code? + +Should one: +1) Trace through the code and try to reverse engineer the documentation, +then modify that. +2) Try to understand generally what it does (such as working out what +the inputs and outputs are). Then rewrite it from scratch in a +documentation led way. + +For me, in a lot of cases, I would prefer option 2. I would not claim to +be as smart as the original authors, any algorithm that I would come up +with might be less efficient and inferior in many respects. However I +would try to document it as well as I could and try to make it a better +basis for future improvement. Also, if I am going to make mistakes, at +least I would learn more from my own mistakes. + +\start +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 15:35:47 -0400 +From: Tim Daly +To: Martin Baker +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... + +> So what should one do if one wants to modify parts of Axiom (or its +> forks) where all there is is the code? +> +> Should one: +> 1) Trace through the code and try to reverse engineer the documentation, +> then modify that. +> 2) Try to understand generally what it does (such as working out what +> the inputs and outputs are). Then rewrite it from scratch in a +> documentation led way. +> +> For me, in a lot of cases, I would prefer option 2. I would not claim to +> be as smart as the original authors, any algorithm that I would come up +> with might be less efficient and inferior in many respects. However I +> would try to document it as well as I could and try to make it a better +> basis for future improvement. Also, if I am going to make mistakes, at +> least I would learn more from my own mistakes. + +For existing code there are many ways to approach the problem and I +can't recommend any general approach. The main goal to keep in mind is +to speak to a broad audience who might need to do something with the +code. For instance, with the sequence prediction code, what is the idea? +What papers should be read? What subset of the problem is covered? Are +there boundary cases? Are there examples to try? How is the code +structured? Does it depend on a limit package? Does it work over floats? + +The approach I'm taking is to start from the code, find the related +theory, then understand and document from the theory to the code. +At that point I feel I know enough to critically examine the code. + +Any algebra author sufficiently clever and educated to write an algebra +package (e.g. JET), is bringing a LOT of background to the code. Writing +reasonable documentation without their help is a formidable challenge. +However if Axiom is going to survive and surpass the current state of +the art it is necessary to try. + +If the information is available it can easily be restructured into the +books, hyperdoc, help files, ++ comments, test files, and examples. + +The new )describe command currently shows working examples. That can be +enough for someone to start using the domains. The new )help command +will (eventually) pop into a browser worksheet with a series of +worked-out problems, explanations, and a live connection to the +interpreter so experiements can be done. + +New algebra authors really do need to spend the time and effort to +bring the quality of their documentation up to the quality of their +code. Writing down the ideas while writing the code is not particularly +challenging and, in fact, is very likely to improve the quality of the +code, based on feedback from those who tried. + +As Roboert Persig said in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", +it's all about quality. As Knuth said, it's all about communication. +Stealing from both, I say it is all about quality communication. + +\start +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 15:39:26 -0400 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [m.kohlhase@jacobs-university.de: First Call for Papers: 26. OpenMath Workshop (at CICM 2014; July 7. July 2014)] + +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:31:32 +0200 +From: Michael Kohlhase +To: list +Subject: First Call for Papers: 26. OpenMath Workshop (at CICM 2014; July= + 7. July 2014)=20 +CC: Michael Kohlhase + +26th OpenMath Workshop +Coimbra, Portugal +July 7. 2014 +co-located with CICM 2014 +Submission deadline 7 June + +http://www.cicm-conference.org/2014/openmath/ + +OBJECTIVES + +OpenMath (http://www.openmath.org) is a language for exchanging +mathematical formulae across applications (such as computer algebra +systems). From 2010 its importance has increased in that OpenMath +Content Dictionaries were adopted as a foundation of the MathML 3 W3C +recommendation (http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML), the standard for +mathematical formulae on the Web. + +Topics we expect to see at the workshop include + + * Feature Requests (Standard Enhancement Proposals) and Discussions + for going beyond OpenMath 2; + * Further convergence of OpenMath and MathML 3; + * Reasoning with OpenMath; + * Software using or processing OpenMath; + * OpenMath on the Semantic Web; + * New OpenMath Content Dictionaries; + +Contributions can be either full research papers, Standard Enhancement +Proposals, or a description of new Content Dictionaries, particularly +ones that are suggested for formal adoption by the OpenMath Society. + +IMPORTANT DATES (all times are "anywhere on earth") + + * 7. June 2014: Submission + * 20. June 2014: Notification of acceptance or rejection + * 5. July 2014: Final revised papers due + * 7. July 2014: Workshop (Coimbra time) + +SUBMISSIONS + +Submission is via EasyChair (http://www.easychair.org/conferences?conf== +om20131). =20 +Final papers must conform to the EasyChair LaTeX style. Initial submissi= +ons in this=20 +format are welcome but not mandatory but they should be in PDF and with= +in the=20 +given limit of pages/words. + +Submission categories: + + * Full paper: 5-10 EasyChair pages + * Short paper: 1-4 EasyChair pages + * CD description: 1-6 EasyChair pages; a .zip or .tgz file of the + CDs must be attached, or a link to the CD provided. + * Standard Enhancement Proposal: 1-10 EasyChair pages (as + appropriate w.r.t. the background knowledge required); a .zip or + .tgz file of any related implementation (e.g. a Relax NG schema) + should be attached. + +If not in EasyChair format, 500 words count as one page. + +PROCEEDINGS + +Electronic proceedings will be published with CEUR-WS.org. + +ORGANISATION COMMITTEE + + * James Davenport (University of Bath, UK) + * Michael Kohlhase (Jacobs University Bremen, Germany) + +PROGRAMME COMMITTEE + + * James Davenport (University of Bath, UK) + * Michael Kohlhase (Jacobs University Bremen, Germany) + * Christoph Lange (Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms-Universit=C3=A4t Bonn= +, Germany)=20 + * Lars Hellstr=C3=B6m (Ume=C3=A5 Universitet, Sweden) + * Jan Willem Knopper (Technische Universiteit Eindhoven, Netherlands) + * Paul Libbrecht (PH Weingarten) + * Chris Rowley (LaTeX3 Project and Open Math Society) + +Comments/questions/enquiries: to be sent to the organizers + +\start +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:33:17 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: Martin Baker +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... + +> So what should one do if one wants to modify parts of Axiom (or its +> forks) where all there is is the code? +> +> Should one: +> 1) Trace through the code and try to reverse engineer the documentation, +> then modify that. +> 2) Try to understand generally what it does (such as working out what +> the inputs and outputs are). Then rewrite it from scratch in a +> documentation led way. +> +> For me, in a lot of cases, I would prefer option 2. I would not claim to +> be as smart as the original authors, any algorithm that I would come up +> with might be less efficient and inferior in many respects. + +Martin, + +Given my mono-maniacal focus on documentation I think I may have +mis-read what you wrote. Let me try another interpretation. + +Are you asking "How do I modify existing code?". For new algebra that +I've written I've tried to provide documentation. But for existing +algebra I've been VERY relucant to change things, even where there +seems to be a better way. Fixing mistakes and extending the code +seem reasonable but changing the existing API? + +One key reason is "backward compatibility". The book and the test +cases document the language and algebra. Old code should continue to +work, otherwise we get into the "python 2.7 vs 3.3 debates". If the +old code doesn't work the system is, by definition, broken. + +Old code always has warts. Common Lisp has CAR which could easily +have been subsumed and removed by extending the definition of FIRST. +Pretty, but ... yeah, broken by definition. + +Another key reason is that the author of the code was likely an expert +in the area. Even experts make mistakes that need to be fixed but +wholesale rewrites seem rather drastic. A rewrite assumes a higher +level of expertise. Some of the Axiom code was written as PhD thesis +work so the bar is pretty high. + +That said, there may be valid reasons to modify or rewrite algebra. + +> However I +> would try to document it as well as I could and try to make it a better +> basis for future improvement. Also, if I am going to make mistakes, at +> least I would learn more from my own mistakes. + +Unless there is some overarching reason it is hard to see the need to +rewrite existing code. A new design that regularizes many domains +might make a good reason. A complete extension of the whole area, such +as a major matrix package might make DHMATRIX a useless subset. But +changing the API of an existing domain so that old code doesn't work +is, by definition, broken. + +Mistakes in the code will occur both in old code and in new code. +Unfortunately new mistakes are only likely to be uncovered by new +people using the new code... which by recursion on the motivation +to rewrite the code... leads to yet a different set of mistakes. + +Code doesn't rust. It doesn't "get old". Especially computational +mathematics code. Tearing down the cathedral because we now know +how to make stones that lasts longer seems ... I don't know ... +disrespectful of the genius of the original architects? + +\start +Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:47:57 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] ouch + +The Low Quality of Scientific Code + +http://techblog.bozho.net/?p=1423 + +\start +Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:21:54 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear... + +On 11/05/14 21:33, Tim Daly wrote: +> Unless there is some overarching reason it is hard to see the need to +> rewrite existing code. A new design that regularizes many domains +> might make a good reason. A complete extension of the whole area, such +> as a major matrix package might make DHMATRIX a useless subset. But +> changing the API of an existing domain so that old code doesn't work +> is, by definition, broken. +> +> Mistakes in the code will occur both in old code and in new code. +> Unfortunately new mistakes are only likely to be uncovered by new +> people using the new code... which by recursion on the motivation +> to rewrite the code... leads to yet a different set of mistakes. +> +> Code doesn't rust. It doesn't "get old". Especially computational +> mathematics code. Tearing down the cathedral because we now know +> how to make stones that lasts longer seems ... I don't know ... +> disrespectful of the genius of the original architects? + +One of the ideas I seem to be getting from the Robert Lefkowitz talks is +that most of the life-cycle of a piece of software is in maintenance +(i.e. change) and that is why this type of documentation is needed. It +seemed to me that a corollary of that is that, if the code does not need +to change, then documentation is not required. + +The thought also occurred to me that the wider axiom community has two +types of factions, those who want to change without documentation and +those who want to document without change. I don't mean this to be taken +seriously, its totally unfair of me to write down such an untrue +thought. I apologise unreservedly to people who are working very hard to +improve a program they believe in strongly. + +I agree about the genius of the original architects who were years ahead +of their time. I think more history should be made available to let more +people know about this. + +However I don't want to use, or work on, software that is a museum or +shrine to the genius of the original architects. I have convinced myself +that the sort of changes, that I would like, are driven by real needs to +support new mathematical structures and so on and not just a wish to +tweak the margins of the program for the sake of it. + +see my wish list: +http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/scratchpad/fricas/wishlist/ + +I think what you are hinting at is that the original scratchpad software +was written by a large number of brilliant people and I am a single, +humble individual who is very far from being a genius. I assure you, I +know that already. I really should set myself more realistic goals. + +It seems to me what Robert Lefkowitz is saying is that programs need to +change over time, and for that they need documentation and of course the +meaning of the word 'documentation' changes over time and everyone +understands the meaning of words differently. Mathematical truth may not +change over time, but the way that people use it, what is considered +important, notation and just about everything else does change. Perhaps +'documentation' does not mean what I think it means but, for me, its +about not freezing the program in time. + +\start +From: Tim Daly +Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 05:10:39 -0500 +To: Martin Baker +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Must hear.... + +>> Unless there is some overarching reason it is hard to see the need to +>> rewrite existing code. A new design that regularizes many domains +>> might make a good reason. A complete extension of the whole area, such +>> as a major matrix package might make DHMATRIX a useless subset. But +>> changing the API of an existing domain so that old code doesn't work +>> is, by definition, broken. +>> +>> Mistakes in the code will occur both in old code and in new code. +>> Unfortunately new mistakes are only likely to be uncovered by new +>> people using the new code... which by recursion on the motivation +>> to rewrite the code... leads to yet a different set of mistakes. +>> +>> Code doesn't rust. It doesn't "get old". Especially computational +>> mathematics code. Tearing down the cathedral because we now know +>> how to make stones that lasts longer seems ... I don't know ... +>> disrespectful of the genius of the original architects? + +Perhaps my cathedral analogy was "over the top". That's partly because +I worked with people like Barry Trager, Manuel Bronstein, et.al. The +day-to-day contact made me realize how little I actually understand. +Naturally I am very careful when changing things, trying to understand +what exists before making changes. Google wouldn't let me change +their search algorithm without understanding it and the mathematics +of Axiom is much more complicated. + + + + +>One of the ideas I seem to be getting from the Robert Lefkowitz talks is +>that most of the life-cycle of a piece of software is in maintenance +>(i.e. change) and that is why this type of documentation is needed. It +>seemed to me that a corollary of that is that, if the code does not need +>to change, then documentation is not required. + +Axiom is clearly in need of maintenance in so many areas. At the very +minimum we have spent a good portion of the time dealing with low-level +issues like changing libraries, changing tools, and changing operating +systems. Fortunately we are nearing a key goal of a lisp-only platform +so Axiom will only need a working standards-based common lisp. The +build machinery is about to be swallowed and then the front end +hyperdoc work (already started) will be subsumed. + +Climbing beyond that level is the effort to document the huge library +of computational mathematics. The code needs to change to handle +the rest of the Risch algorithm, for instance. But what exists also +needs to be brought to a state where we know what is there, where it +is, and how to extend the missing parts. Manuel gave me permission to +use all of his writings to document the code... It just takes time. + +If Axiom was a 100 line program this would be trivial. At 1.2 million +lines it is going to take a while. + + + + +>The thought also occurred to me that the wider axiom community has two +>types of factions, those who want to change without documentation and +>those who want to document without change. I don't mean this to be taken +>seriously, its totally unfair of me to write down such an untrue +>thought. I apologise unreservedly to people who are working very hard to +>improve a program they believe in strongly. + +Well, that's not a bad way to characterize it. I'm re-working the +Axiom emails and I see many cases of changes proposed without even a +single line of comment. I also see a lot of pushback about the wisdom +of LP. So there is certainly a camp of "change without documentation". +There hasn't been a single, well documented pamphlet file submitted. +We're also watching LP die in the forks, leading to the "raw code" +approach. + +On the other hand, "documentation without change" seems to +characterize my position on things, mildly unfairly I think, but not +without merit. I have added algebra for predicting sequences, for +JET, for BLAS, for numeric functions, etc. The numeric code I wrote is +reasonably well documented. The JET code was done as well as I could +from available words. I'd also like to pick up Waldek's recent +integration work but I have no idea where to start, nor what references +to read to understand it, nor enough background to document it. So +Axiom is changing, slowly. + +I've asked several authors for permission to quote their papers, which +is an exception permitted by copyright for research purposes. All but +one have said yes. I have a whole directory of papers slated to be +added as documentation to the related domains. Each one is "expensive" +because I have to learn the relevant background to write readable +documentation and connect it to the domains but, hey, it's a 30 year +horizon project :-) + + + + +>I agree about the genius of the original architects who were years ahead +>of their time. I think more history should be made available to let more +>people know about this. + +>However I don't want to use, or work on, software that is a museum or +>shrine to the genius of the original architects. I have convinced myself +>that the sort of changes, that I would like, are driven by real needs to +>support new mathematical structures and so on and not just a wish to +>tweak the margins of the program for the sake of it. + +There seem to be two philosophical approaches to computational +mathematics. From one side there are the "programmers doing mathematics". +They follow the usual path of "write the code, read the code". They +are very liberal about the programs, moving from patch-to-patch, +changing things. They are fast and liberal, moving at the pace of +programmers everywhere. + +On the other side I see the "mathematicians doing programming". They +follow the usual "write the paper, bury the code". They are very +conservative about the math, moving theorem-to-theorem, proving each +step along the way. Change is slow and conservative, moving at the +pace of mathematicians everywhere. + +As a "computational mathematician" I'm trying to occupy the middle +ground where code gets written and it is intimately connected with the +paper and proof. There is no need to invent new mathematics as there +are whole landscapes of existing work that can be reduced to +programs. The ideas should stay with the code so future Axiom +developers can maintain and modify the mathematics in a disciplined +way. Indeed, a stated long term Axiom goal is to integrate with either +ACL2 or COQ to prove the algorithms in Axiom. I believe that properly +written literate programs are the best vehicle for all that. + +I have published an invited editorial in the Notices of the American +Mathematical Society, pushing for LP and Reproducible Research so +Axiom isn't the only place you'll see me moaning about this. I am +working with John Kitchin from Carnegie Mellon on an effort to teach +the next generation of students to write literate programs. The +hope is that the next generation of students will naturally document +their programs. John works in computational chemistry, which would +make an interesting extension area of Axiom (if I only had time...) + + + + + +>see my wish list: +>http://www.euclideanspace.com/prog/scratchpad/fricas/wishlist/ + +I have research in Indefinites, Interval Arithmetic, and Provisos that +I really, really want to implement. I have done work in all three +areas. They would really extend Axiom's power. I want to do work in +Quantum Physics, with things like Hadamard gates, so I can implement +the quantum fourier transform algorithm. I've been working with Albert +Rich on the computer algebra test suite (CATS) using his 50,000 +integrals. I want to implement his techniques in Axiom to cover the +cases we miss now. + +Wish lists are long, days are short. + +Axiom is a "spare time" effort, not a career, so time is limited. I +miss the days when computational mathematics was supported financially. +This "nights and weekends" approach is painfully slow. In fact, without +the support of Gilbert Baumslag, Axiom's release might not have happened +at all. + + + + + + + +>I think what you are hinting at is that the original scratchpad software +>was written by a large number of brilliant people and I am a single, +>humble individual who is very far from being a genius. I assure you, I +>know that already. I really should set myself more realistic goals. + +There are truly brilliant people I've seen in the open source version +of Axiom. There is no shortage of brilliant people here. Waldek is +doing amazing work, for instance. Do not ever feel that I'm "hinting" +you're not. I'm not the one to judge, nor is my opinion worth the time +to consider. If you're doing computational mathematics at all, you're +already in the best of company. + +We need the brilliant among us to write stuff down for lesser mortals +like myself. It is wonderful to bring the gift of fire ... but could +you explain that trick with rubbing the sticks again? :-) + + + + + +>It seems to me what Robert Lefkowitz is saying is that programs need to +>change over time, and for that they need documentation and of course the +>meaning of the word 'documentation' changes over time and everyone +>understands the meaning of words differently. Mathematical truth may not +>change over time, but the way that people use it, what is considered +>important, notation and just about everything else does change. Perhaps +>'documentation' does not mean what I think it means but, for me, its +>about not freezing the program in time. + +Mathematics changes over time but very slowly. I've heavily quoted +from a 19th century treatise on quaternions in the Axiom documentation. +The words are still relevant. + +I don't want Axiom frozen. I want it brought to a state where it can +be maintained, modified, and extended without being a 1-in-a-million +programmer/mathematician/genius. Add new algebra, but document it. +Change old algebra, but document it first. Expose the thinking as +well as the code. Whatever gets written will IMMEDIATELY become a +maintenance task for the future. Communicate the ideas. + +\start +Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:13:59 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: Helmut Jarausch +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 +Cc: Gabriel Dos Reis + +Helmut, + +Please contact Gabriel Dos Reis, copied above, for help. + +The SBCL problem is not unusual. One of the hard parts of a +large project is the amount of time spent keeping up with +the many different ports to many platforms. + +You might consider trying it on a prior version of SBCL to +see if you can isolate the problem and give him a more +detailed bug report. The actual bug could have nothing to do +with either piece of software. + +\start +Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:32:50 +0200 +From: Helmut Jarausch +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 + +Hi, + +I'm trying to build open-axiom-1.4.2 with SBCL-1.1.18. +It fails with strange memory errors like + +; compiling (DEFUN |bfOR| ...) +; compiling (DEFUN |bfAND| ...)CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid =20 +140737353516800): +Memory fault at 1878002f (pc=0x100099ca66, sp=0x7ffff6c8eaf8) +The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +Continuing with fingers crossed. +CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=0x10015259aa, sp=0x7ffff6c8e430) +The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +Continuing with fingers crossed. +CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=0x10015259aa, sp=0x7ffff6c8dbe0) +The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +Continuing with fingers crossed. + +debugger invoked on a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR in thread +#: + Unhandled memory fault at #x40200066. + +and so on. + +I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL. + +What is so special about Open-Axiom? + +Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing +memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here? + +Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ? + +\start +Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 12:34:18 -0500 +From: Tim daly +To: Helmut Jarausch +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 + +Helmut, + +You have the wrong mailing list. The names of the two projects +is a source of confusion. + +This is the mailing list for Axiom. Please contact Gaby. + +Tim Daly + +\start +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 01:44:18 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Axiom mentioned in an LP talk by Bart Childs +Cc: John Kitchin + +I've been listening to various talks about literate programming. Bart +Childs of Texas A&M University, presented a paper with a talk "Thirty +Years of Literate Programming and More?" and mentions Axiom at around +24:30 (actually, somebody named Nelson, I suspect Nelson Beebe, from +the audience talks about it at Bart's request). + +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsidc + +https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb31-2/tb98childs.pdf + +He had some interesting results from teaching using literate programming +in an undergraduate course. + +\start +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 08:41:00 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom mentioned in an LP talk by Bart Childs + +Tim, + +The link you gave: +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsidc +did not work on my computer, I think it should be: +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsldc + +\start +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42:31 -0700 +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: Helmut Jarausch +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 + +On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Helmut Jarausch + +> Hi, +> +> I'm trying to build open-axiom-1.4.2 with SBCL-1.1.18. +> It fails with strange memory errors like +> +> ; compiling (DEFUN |bfOR| ...) +> ; compiling (DEFUN |bfAND| ...)CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid +> 140737353516800): +> Memory fault at 1878002f (pc=0x100099ca66, sp=0x7ffff6c8eaf8) +> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +> Continuing with fingers crossed. +> CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +> Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=0x10015259aa, sp=0x7ffff6c8e430) +> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +> Continuing with fingers crossed. +> CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9224(tid 140737353516800): +> Memory fault at 40200066 (pc=0x10015259aa, sp=0x7ffff6c8dbe0) +> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. +> Continuing with fingers crossed. +> +> debugger invoked on a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR in thread +> #: +> Unhandled memory fault at #x40200066. +> +> and so on. +> +> I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL. +> +> What is so special about Open-Axiom? +> +> Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing +> memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here? +> +> Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ? +> +> Many thanks for some hints, +> Helmut + +Helmut, + +Thanks for the report. Issues related to OpenAxiom should be reported to +OpenAxiom developers at + + open-axiom-devel@lists.sf.net + open-axiom-bugs@lists.sf.net + +Are you by any chance building on Gentoo? It looks the same as this issue: + +https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sbcl-help-archive/fTYViJjaotE/dsWMdRWPjJgJ + +\start +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:45:59 -0700 +From: Gabriel Dos Reis +To: Helmut Jarausch +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 +> +> I have built Fricas and Maxima successfully with SBCL. +> +> What is so special about Open-Axiom? +> +> Of course, no source program should ever get a compiler in producing +> memory faults. But is it only SBCL which is wrong here? +> +> Is there a patch to build Open-Axiom with SBCL ? +> + +PS: I build OpenAxiom regularly with SBCL on openSUSE and Mac OS X. +I do not have access to a Gentoo box, so anyway that would help me +reproduce this would be most welcome. + +\start +Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: Helmut Jarausch +Subject: [Axiom-developer] open-axiom-1.4.2 cannot be built with sbcl-1.1.18 + +Helmut, + +This problem is not related to Axiom. They are different projects. + +Please do not copy axiom-developer@nongnu.org on your mailings. + +\start +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 03:07:57 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language + +I had a debate about syntax highlighting of languages, an idea that +dates back to Ada, as near as I can determine. In Ada publications +it was traditional to highlight, by bold characters, all of the +keywords in the language. This notion continues today. + +Highlighting, and in particular bolding, is intended to draw attention +to things of interest. In normal prose one highlights portions of text +that are under discussion, items of controversy, or famous quotes. The +technique is a primary tool of communication. + +In computer languages, of which I have professionally coded in over 60, +it is usually used in the Ada tradition of highlighting syntax. + +Several objections can be raised. + +First, suppose we applied this to English. We could make the editor +bold the 19 basic prepositions (at, after, by, down, for, from, in, +of, on, over, past, round, since, through, till, to, under, up, with). +While syntactically correct it is, to say the least, distracting. + +This draws attention to these "keywords" in the sentence but, as a +native speaker of English, adds nothing worthwhile. In computer +languages this has the same effect. It is not at all useful to bold +keywords like IF, THEN, or ELSE. Any native speaker of the language +can see these at a glance. Bringing such "background" items to the +"foreground" of attention highlights the static, inverting the usual +use of the technique in communication. + +Even worse, some languages don't have "keywords" in the usual sense. +In Lisp it is entirely possible to use the symbol "if" in any number +of contexts, only one of which invokes its meaning as a conditional +statement. It is a complete waste of cycles to dynamically re-parse +text that a native speaker can read. + +Second, and worse, such highlighting undermines the most important +aspect of the technique, namely to draw the reader's attention to +something noteworthy. Bolding and other forms of highlighting are +textual means of emphasis in communication. Regular, repeated, and +non-communicative use removes this from the toolbox of the author. + +Third, and on a personal aside, one often encounters color-coded +program text in these highlighting schemes. As someone who is +partially color blind it is often impossible to see some characters at +all. It is usually possible to change these settings online but in +printed text whole passages are unreadable. Thus + + void foo(char *x) { + if (x > b) then c else d; + } + +in certain colors becomes + + foo( x) + (x b) c d + +which, I must say, certainly de-emphasizes the language syntax though +losing a bit in semantics. :-) + +So consider the difference between "coding for yourself" where your +editor highlights code in pretty rainbow colors and "coding or writing +for communication" where the techniques for directing the attention of +the audience matters. + +BE BOLD! may work for a wiki but not for communication. + +\start +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 08:56:06 -0400 +From: William Sit +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language + +Dear Tim: + +Your reasoning is perfect for natural languages. For +computer languages, I do think there is a purpose for +certain highlighting of keywords and their associated +punctuations, particularly when the correct language +syntax frequently demands nested pairs of delimiters whose +scopes may be more than a few lines, and where structural +indentations may not be practical. Examples would be html, +Mathematica and TeX/LaTeX. Thus, the reason for +highlighting an IF-THEN-ELSE (as just one example) is not +because readers can't recognize those keywords, but +because readers may find it difficult to identify the +extents indicated by the hyphens in IF-THEN-ELSE. Such +highlighting benefits both the authors and the readers and +has its role for better syntactic communication. + +One should not compare or confuse the highlighting of, +say, prepositions in natural languages with scope defining +highlighting in programming languages. + +That said, it is not good programming practice to have +long scopes between paired delimiters, or for that matter, +deeply nested pairs of delimiters. + +I agree that those who choose color highlighting should +choose colors carefully. I would prefer background +coloring only and not text coloring, to avoid the precise +problems you illustrated. Text emphasis should be shown +using different typefaces, and in rare situations, a solid +color like red. + +\start +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:26:15 +0200 +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language + +> I agree that those who choose color highlighting should choose colors +> carefully. I would prefer background coloring only and not text +> coloring, to avoid the precise problems you illustrated. Text emphasis +> should be shown using different typefaces, and in rare situations, a +> solid color like red. + +We are no longer in the early days of computers. +And we are dealing with open source. + +I think that it's nowadays totally easy to separate style elements from +the content and let the *reader* decide what style he/she wants. In +LaTeX we have .sty files, for HTML there is .css etc. etc. + +The only issue is if the reader has no choice than to read badly styled +text. + +\start +Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:04:15 -0400 +From: William Sit +To: Ralf Hemmecke +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] On syntactic coloring of language + +Hi Ralf: + +I don't think Tim is talking about the "product" (such as +a compiled pdf from LaTeX, or a rendered html web page), +but about the source files. The style in a publication is +rightly the choice of the author, as a personal artistic +preference. While it is possible (I won't say "easy") to +change the style of a published work (as a web page, by +changing css file), I doubt a reader would waste time if +the reader finds the rendition really subjectively +offending. The work will most likely be ignored. But that +is not an issue: the author most likely just wanted to +appeal to "flocks of the same feather" and used the style +as a filter. + +If the source (ASCII text with markups) is the product, +then I agree with you. By using a different editor, one +can change the style or even make it plain text with +relative ease (say cut and paste to Notepad). The main +issue in that case is the ubiquitous LF/CR problem. + +\start +Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 11:53:13 -0400 +From: John Kitchin +To: Tim Daly +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom mentioned in an LP talk by Bart Childs + +Thanks. I recently wrote probably my first serious attempt at a literate +program in org-mode to insert and format references in technical documents! + + +On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:44 AM, wrote: + +> I've been listening to various talks about literate programming. Bart +> Childs of Texas A&M University, presented a paper with a talk "Thirty +> Years of Literate Programming and More?" and mentions Axiom at around +> 24:30 (actually, somebody named Nelson, I suspect Nelson Beebe, from +> the audience talks about it at Bart's request). +> +> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cKI2jsidc +> +> https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb31-2/tb98childs.pdf +> +> He had some interesting results from teaching using literate programming +> in an undergraduate course. + +\start +Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 15:19:54 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] documentation + +An interesting blog post by Yevgenly Brikman + +"You are what you document" + +http://brikis98.blogspot.com.tr/2014/05/you-are-what-you-document.html?spref=tw + +\start +Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 17:40:16 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Nelson Beebe quote + +I transcribed Nelson's quote from the Tug meeting, for those of you +who missed his comment. + +Nelson said: + +=========================================================== + +I come from a mathematics department and many mathematicians, +particularly those in pure math, have a strong distrust of computers +and they are really not inclined to accept computer-based proofs, +although there have been some dramatic examples of those in the last +two or three decades. + +In the early 1970s, researchers at IBM developed a symbolic algebra +system called Scratchpad and this went on inside IBM for many years. +There were lots of papers written about it. It ultimately got renamed +to Axiom and was sold by NAG, the Numerical Algorithms Group in +England, for a few years. And then it disappeared from the market and +became unavailable. + +People worried about this for probably about 5 years but finally NAG +was able to release it and a major decision has been taken. Axiom is +being completely reimplemented as a literate program. And the reason +is, is that software outlives hardware, and often its own authors. The +author of Scratchpad died about 5 years ago. + +So they feel the only way that this system can survive and be used by +future generations is to be written as a literate program so that the +reason behind the program is embedded there as part of the description +of the code. I think this is really important and could be really +quite significant for the future growth of computing and mathematics. + +=========================================================== + +\start +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 06:03:04 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +The primary focus of a "documentation system" is communication from +the author to the audience. + +One of the struggles apparent in discussing issues of communication, +especially with programmers, is Heideggers "present-at-hand" vs +"breaking down". + +Programmers write programs to instruct a machine to perform some +task. In the ideal, this involves "communication" from the mind of +the programmer to the "execution of the program". If the program works +the first time it is all a seamless entity ("present-at-hand"). + +When the program fails, by compiler errors, missing libraries, runtime +errors, design errors, inappropriate actions, or any of the other dragons +of programming, the process is not seamless. The details of the process +rise to our awareness ("breaking down"). The burden of failure is likely +to fall on people who use or maintain the program rather than the authors. +If the program survives, these are likely audiences. + + + +Programmers, generalizing from my own case, rarely have a seamless +experience. Programs that work the first time, are correct, efficient, +and all of the other properties, are rather far outside our experience. + +The effect of this constant "breaking down" is that we have learned, +rather painfully, to be aware of the machinery of the process at every +step of the way. This focus on the machinery becomes the expected way +of communicating with the machine. Scratch any programmer, interview at +any company, listen to any talk, and you find "machinery". + +But communication from the author to the audience is the underlying +theme of literate programming. Knuth's point is about communication, +not about the machinery of communication. The question is, to what +audience, not how. + + + +Discussions seem to get lost in a debate about the machinery rather +than the goal. We focus our debate on docstrings versus markup versus +wiki. We consider literate programming to be "too much machinery". + +In these forums there is rarely find any example of "present-at-hand" +issues of communication. That is, given a large program (e.g. Axiom, +Clojure), what is it that we need to communicate, to what audience, +and at what level of detail? + +Axiom focuses on "The 30 year horizon" under the assumption that the +computational mathematics will be forever valid and that the audience +will be unable to contact the likely-dead authors. + +Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Base Rendering" [0] is written as a +literate program, a book that won an Academy Award, using Tex and +C++. The very first thing they mention in the preface is the +"Audience". They communicate to humans and, also, to machines. + +What is the audience for Clojure? + +Common Lisp has achieved a long-term horizon by raising the language +to a standard. No standard is perfect but it does make it possible to +construct programs which have a stable base for communication. That +base makes it possible to write a book like "Lisp in Small Pieces" [1] +which communicates ideas in natural language using an embedded program +as a reduction to practice. + + + +So the fundamental point is what to communicate to what audience, +not how to implement it. Different audiences will need different +implementations (e.g. docstrings for REPL users) but we must avoid +losing ourselves in the noise. + +Axiom, by choice, has a defined audience. Does Clojure? + +Tim Daly +daly@axiom-developer.org + +[0] Pharr, Matt; Humphreys, Greg + Physically Based Rendering + ISBN 978-0-12-375079-2 +[1] Queinnec, Christian + Lisp in Small Pieces + ISBN 978-0521545662 + +\start +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:16:25 -0700 (PDT) +From: Marshall Abrams +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:03:04 AM UTC-5, da...@axiom-developer.org +wrote: +> +> The primary focus of a "documentation system" is communication from +> the author to the audience. +> +> One of the struggles apparent in discussing issues of communication, +> especially with programmers, is Heideggers "present-at-hand" vs +> "breaking down". +> +> Programmers write programs to instruct a machine to perform some +> task. In the ideal, this involves "communication" from the mind of +> the programmer to the "execution of the program". If the program works +> the first time it is all a seamless entity ("present-at-hand"). +> +> When the program fails, by compiler errors, missing libraries, runtime +> errors, design errors, inappropriate actions, or any of the other dragons +> of programming, the process is not seamless. The details of the process +> rise to our awareness ("breaking down"). The burden of failure is likely +> to fall on people who use or maintain the program rather than the authors. +> If the program survives, these are likely audiences. +> +> +> +> Programmers, generalizing from my own case, rarely have a seamless +> experience. Programs that work the first time, are correct, efficient, +> and all of the other properties, are rather far outside our experience. +> +> The effect of this constant "breaking down" is that we have learned, +> rather painfully, to be aware of the machinery of the process at every +> step of the way. This focus on the machinery becomes the expected way +> of communicating with the machine. Scratch any programmer, interview at +> any company, listen to any talk, and you find "machinery". +> +> But communication from the author to the audience is the underlying +> theme of literate programming. Knuth's point is about communication, +> not about the machinery of communication. The question is, to what +> audience, not how. +> +> +> +> Discussions seem to get lost in a debate about the machinery rather +> than the goal. We focus our debate on docstrings versus markup versus +> wiki. We consider literate programming to be "too much machinery". +> +> In these forums there is rarely find any example of "present-at-hand" +> issues of communication. That is, given a large program (e.g. Axiom, +> Clojure), what is it that we need to communicate, to what audience, +> and at what level of detail? +> +> Axiom focuses on "The 30 year horizon" under the assumption that the +> computational mathematics will be forever valid and that the audience +> will be unable to contact the likely-dead authors. +> +> Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Base Rendering" [0] is written as a +> literate program, a book that won an Academy Award, using Tex and +> C++. The very first thing they mention in the preface is the +> "Audience". They communicate to humans and, also, to machines. +> +> What is the audience for Clojure? +> +> Common Lisp has achieved a long-term horizon by raising the language +> to a standard. No standard is perfect but it does make it possible to +> construct programs which have a stable base for communication. That +> base makes it possible to write a book like "Lisp in Small Pieces" [1] +> which communicates ideas in natural language using an embedded program +> as a reduction to practice. +> +> +> +> So the fundamental point is what to communicate to what audience, +> not how to implement it. Different audiences will need different +> implementations (e.g. docstrings for REPL users) but we must avoid +> losing ourselves in the noise. +> +> Axiom, by choice, has a defined audience. Does Clojure? +> +> Tim Daly +> da...@axiom-developer.org +> +> [0] Pharr, Matt; Humphreys, Greg +> Physically Based Rendering +> ISBN 978-0-12-375079-2 +> [1] Queinnec, Christian +> Lisp in Small Pieces +> ISBN 978-0521545662 +> + +\start +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:39:03 -0700 (PDT) +From: Marshall Abrams +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + + +>From my point of view there are at least a few things that seem clear: + +1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to his +remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, as +well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) + +2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure source code has no +single kind of human audience for the code. + +In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, +depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the +code, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to +interface with it, for example. Further, I think about the skill levels +and background of those who will read the code. And I think about what +they would want to do with it. And then I make decisions that involve +tradeoffs between competing desiderata. + +3. There is a tradeoff between the desire to see a lot of code at once, +without a lot of text cluttering it up, and understanding what the code is +doing. Comments hurt the former but can help the latter. The same thing +goes for literate programming, but--it depends on your goals and your human +audience. + +4. Two examples to convey the context-dependence of appropriate +configuration schemes: + +A. One time I wrote a small but slightly complex bit of code (in Perl, not +Clojure). I could see that it would be confusing, if someone just started +reading the code at an arbitrary place. But I also knew the ability of the +other programmers I worked with, and I knew that if they started reading at +one particular function, they would be able to figure out most of the +rest. I provided text that explained what they wouldn't be able to figure +out. About six months after I left the company, one of the programmers +contacted me and asked me to explain the program; he had to make a +modification. I told him to look at such and such document, which mainly +said "Start reading the code at such and such point, and understand these +few other things." He did, and that was all he needed. If I wrote more +documentation, I would only be duplicating the information that was already +there in the source code, and that would be apparent for the kind of people +who would read it. In fact, if I provided *more* documentation, I doubt +that the other programmers would have read it. They would have just looked +at the source. + +B. Another example. + +I generally don't like the idea of LP. That is to say, I like the idea of +people who want to be able to use it, using it, but I don't want to use it, +usually. And the reason that I don't want to use it is not simply that I +don't want to bother writing it. It's that I want the ability to use +simple tools and I want to have relatively uncluttered source code. (I +could use LP and have uncluttered source much of the time, but only by +using special tools.) + +In my current main project, there is source code that implements the +central functionality of the application, and there are rather complex +configuration files. I write documents to describe the central +functionality source code, so that someone who wants to hack on it will +know where to start and where to look. I have to trust that they will know +or will be willing to learn Clojure, because otherwise I'd have to explain +too much. + +However, the configuration files should be modifiable by people who won't +understand the guts of the program, and yet, they are in Clojure, and would +be pretty unintelligible to someone who merely understood in general what +the program was supposed to do. (I may create a DSL for the config files, +but all that will do will be to get rid of a few parentheses. The +information in the config files won't be expressed significantly more +succinctly.) + +For the first time I'm thinking of using LP. It would be perfect for the +config files, and in fact, any other way of documenting the config files +will probably be inadequate. Interspersing explanations with the +configuration code is precisely what's needed. + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 02:16:53 -0400 +From: Tim Daly +To: Gregg Reynolds, Marshall Abrams +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +Gregg and Gary, + +I understand where you are coming from. Indeed, Maturana [0] is on your +side of the debate. Since even the philosophers can't agree, I doubt we +will find a common ground. + +Unfortunately, I've decided to take on the task of documenting the +Clojure internals because, yaknow, *I* don't feel I understand something +until I know what the hardware does; consider this a flaw in my +personality :-) I have to say that the posted Clojure code is +"somewhat lacking" in the communication department. Perhaps it is only +intended for an "audience of one", and I'm not "the one". :-) + +Contrary to popular belief, I am reading the code. As a result, I have a +strongly held opinion that there is a lot that could be done to make +it less of a struggle. + + +>> From my point of view there are at least a few things that seem clear: +>> +>> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to +>> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, +>> as well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +>> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +>> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) +>> +> +>I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience" of one. +>I guess I would say "reader/responder". + +Hmmm. Common Lisp is about 25 years old. Assume Clojure lives that long. +What are the odds that the original authors will be maintaining the +code? Will the code still be "an audience of one"? Are you sure that's +a worthwhile goal? + + + +>> 2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure source code has no +>> single kind of human audience for the code. +>> +>> In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, +>> depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the +>> code, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to +>> interface with it, for example. Further, I think about the skill levels +>> and background of those who will read the code. And I think about what +>> they would want to do with it. And then I make decisions that involve +>> tradeoffs between competing desiderata. +> + +My experience "in industry" with "general-purpose tool" code is that +code does look a lot different from project to project and language to +language. But as code moved out of its childhood and off the desk, it +began to grow hair and get ugly. The authors all assumed they would be +"the only maintainer". For instance, + + I once had to maintain a C program that had 14 pages of nested ifdefs + just to choose the correct #include files. Each include file had + ifdefs. The code ran everywhere, Intel, ARM, 68000s, SUNs, DEC, + etc. but nearly every line was based on experience (e.g. compensating + for floating-point errors on various platforms, hacking around errors + in various C compilers and their "optimizers", etc.) with ifdefs + around each hack. I had to run the compiler intermediate stage to + figure out what the actual code would be for my platform. And then I + had to reverse-engineer the fix into the appropriate include files; + uncommented I might add. I wouldn't want to ruin the style. + + Sophisticated Lisp programmers use macros A LOT. Axiom, for instance, + compiles code from a high-level algebra language, essentially a DSL, + into macros that index into vectors for the function to call, or the + category to inherit which might contain the call, and the environment + passed to each function is a huge vector. DSLs, which make the top + level code "so clear", often are macros generating machine-code-like + lisp doing super-efficient vector indexing. One finds macros + expanding into macros expanding into macros. Quick, what does the + spadcall macro do? + + And we won't even mention that despite the use of a DSL, the DSL + code isn't "perfectly clear" either. This is especially true when + it gets mixed with inline, non-DSL code. For instance, Axiom's + algebra code regularly invokes low-level lisp functions. + + + +>Exactly. Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what +>all code should look like. Maybe it's essentially pluralistic. + +Yes, it is hard to generalize about what all code should look like. But +it is not hard to generalize that reading natural language explanations +is faster, more accurate, and a lot easier than reverse-engineering +code. It is MUCH easier to understand Greg Humphrey's rendering code +than it is to understand the Clojure internals. + +Consider a randomly chosen paragraph from Physically Based Rendering +(p356): + + + + To do the permutation, this function loops over the samples, randomly + permuting the sample points in one dimension at a time. Note that this + is a different permutation than the earlier Shuffle() routine: that + routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each + sample together, while here nDim separate permutations of a single + dimension at a time are done. (Figure 7.21) + + for (uint32_t i = 0; i < nDim; ++1) { + for (uint32_t j = 0; j < nSamples; ++j) { + uint32_t other = j + (rng.RandomUInt() % (nSamples - j)); + swap(samples[nDim + j + i], samples[nDim * other + i]); + } + } + + Footnote: While it's not necessary to permute the first dimension of + the LHS pattern, the implementation here does so anyway since making + the elements of the first dimension be randomly ordered means that LHS + patterns can be used in conjunction with sampling patterns from other + sources without danger of correlation between their sample points. + + + +So we learned what the code does. We also learned not to "optimize the +code" by replacing it with Shuffle(). Further, we learned that we +shouldn't "optimize the code" by removing the apparently useless +shuffle of the first dimension. And, as a bonus, we get a figure. +NONE OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE CODE ITSELF. + +In addition, this code lives in an organizing structure. It is +in Chapter 7: Sampling and Reconstruction + Section 7.3: Stratified Samples + + +Heck, it is only 4 lines of C++. Why bother? *I* can read C++. I can +even reverse engineer it (probably by inventing the diagram in Figure +2.7 on a napkin). Maybe it lives in the src/SamRecon/StratSam, which is +all the organization necessary. :-) But I can't reverse engineer the +important information in either paragraph of text. + +For comparison, refer back to the multi-page Java code I posted +from the Clojure core. As a maintenance programmer, which would you +rather maintain? + + + + +Estimates are that programs that "live" spend 80% or more of their +"lifetime" in maintenance. + +Companies that depend on a "crufty old program" (a l33t-speak term for +any program not authored by the current maintainer) are willing to pay +the cost to have programmers read the code, take notes, and spend time +reverse-engineering the code. + +In contrast, open source code tends to die the moment the original +authors stop typing. Sourceforge, github, savannah, etc. are +wall-to-wall full of code nobody will ever use. It is very common to +see someone write: + + "Well, it hasn't been updated in the last 6 months so I don't think + it is being maintained anymore." + +Being an "audience of one" when writing the code means the program +will have an "audience of one" in github; until 6 months pass and it has +an "audience of zero". + +Languages come into fashion all the time. Almost all of them disappear. +Axiom and Clojure are worthwhile efforts. We really need a mindset that +extends into the future, communicating with the maintainers. + +Tim Daly + +For want of a comment, the fix was lost. +For want of a fix, the routine was lost. +For want of a routine, a program was lost. +For want of a program, the customer was lost. +For want of a customer, the company was lost. + +[0] Zeleny, M. (ed.) + "Autopoiesis, a Theory of the Living Organization" + New York, Elsevier-North Holland (1978) + +\start +Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:22:58 -0500 +From: Gregg Reynolds +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Marshall Abrams wrote: + +> Tim, +> +> From my point of view there are at least a few things that seem clear: +> +> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to +> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, +> as well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) +> + +I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience" of one. +I guess I would say "reader/responder". + + +> +> 2. Since Clojure is a general-purpose tool, Clojure source code has no +> single kind of human audience for the code. +> +> In general, I do different things with comments, or with my coding style, +> depending on whether I expect that I will be the only maintainer of the +> code, or expect that others with whom I'm collaborating will need to +> interface with it, for example. Further, I think about the skill levels +> and background of those who will read the code. And I think about what +> they would want to do with it. And then I make decisions that involve +> tradeoffs between competing desiderata. +> + +Exactly. Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what +all code should look like. Maybe it's essentially pluralistic. + +> +> 3. There is a tradeoff between the desire to see a lot of code at once, +> without a lot of text cluttering it up, and understanding what the code is +> doing. Comments hurt the former but can help the latter. The same thing +> goes for literate programming, but--it depends on your goals and your human +> audience. +> +> 4. Two examples to convey the context-dependence of appropriate +> configuration schemes: +> +> A. One time I wrote a small but slightly complex bit of code (in Perl, not +> Clojure). I could see that it would be confusing, if someone just started +> reading the code at an arbitrary place. But I also knew the ability of the +> other programmers I worked with, and I knew that if they started reading at +> one particular function, they would be able to figure out most of the +> rest. I provided text that explained what they wouldn't be able to figure +> out. About six months after I left the company, one of the programmers +> contacted me and asked me to explain the program; he had to make a +> modification. I told him to look at such and such document, which mainly +> said "Start reading the code at such and such point, and understand these +> few other things." He did, and that was all he needed. If I wrote more +> documentation, I would only be duplicating the information that was already +> there in the source code, and that would be apparent for the kind of people +> who would read it. In fact, if I provided *more* documentation, I doubt +> that the other programmers would have read it. They would have just looked +> at the source. +> + +Yep; there's always a point of diminishing returns. I find that in +developing code (or trying to understand others' code) I often take +extensive notes and sometimes try to mentally "improve" what I deem sloppy +or hard-to-read by writing a clear description of it, or just expressing it +in different language. But once I get comfortable with the code I don't +often return to my documentation. + +... + +> For the first time I'm thinking of using LP. It would be perfect for the +> config files, and in fact, any other way of documenting the config files +> will probably be inadequate. Interspersing explanations with the +> configuration code is precisely what's needed. +> + +I agree, that's a case where monolithic LP is entirely appropriate. Ditto +for APIs and unit tests; maybe also for simplified examples of API usage +expressly designed for training. + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 04:21:37 -0500 +From: Gregg Reynolds +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication +Cc: Marshall Abrams + +Howdy Tim, + + +On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:16 AM, u1204 wrote: + +> Gregg and Gary, +> +> I understand where you are coming from. Indeed, Maturana [0] is on your +> side of the debate. Since even the philosophers can't agree, I doubt we +> will find a common ground. +> + +Ah, but philosophers never agree. Disagreement is part of their job +description. Why should programmers be any different? + + +> +> Unfortunately, I've decided to take on the task of documenting the +> Clojure internals because, yaknow, *I* don't feel I understand something +> until I know what the hardware does; consider this a flaw in my +> personality :-) + + +I suffer from a similar malady, which compels me to continually rewrite +other peoples code, since, gee whiz, "foo" is not quite the perfect name +for that darn variable, "bar" would be just slightly better, and on and +on. You can see why I prefer code to commentary. +... +>> +>> 1. I think that Gregg Reynolds and I agree on a lot, but I would add to +>> his remarks that there is almost always a human audience for source code, +>> as well as the compiler/interpreter. Sometimes, the audience is just the +>> originally programmer, perhaps at a later date. (If I missed something, +>> Gregg, sorry, but I don't think you disagree, anyway.) +>> +> +>I agree; whoever writes the code automatically forms an "audience" of one. +>I guess I would say "reader/responder". + +Hmmm. Common Lisp is about 25 years old. Assume Clojure lives that long. +> What are the odds that the original authors will be maintaining the +> code? Will the code still be "an audience of one"? Are you sure that's +> a worthwhile goal? +> + +I think you may have misunderstood me (dunno about Gary): my point is that +even one-off code that gets discarded immediately has a human reader, +namely the author. A statement of (minimal) fact, not a goal. + +... + +> +> Sophisticated Lisp programmers use macros A LOT. + + +That's because they are language designers, and they know it. + + +> expanding into macros expanding into macros. Quick, what does the +> spadcall macro do? +> + +HCF? + +>Exactly. Conclusion: it's hard, maybe impossible, to generalize about what +> >all code should look like. Maybe it's essentially pluralistic. +> +> Yes, it is hard to generalize about what all code should look like. But +> it is not hard to generalize that reading natural language explanations +> is faster, more accurate, and a lot easier than reverse-engineering +> code. + + +Whoa Nelly! I don't agree with that at all, either in principle or by +experience. Well, ok, you've rigged the game. Easier than +"reverse-engineering code" - what does that mean? I guess you mean reading +well-written natural language explanations is faster etc. than reading +badly written code - but so what? It's not a meaningful comparison. Would +you take a comparison between a sample of well-written code and a sample +badly written LP as evidence against LP? I would not. To me the question +is whether well-written natural language explanation adds anything of +substance to well-written code. + + +> It is MUCH easier to understand Greg Humphrey's rendering code +> than it is to understand the Clojure internals. +> + +Ok, but I don't see how exhibiting a piece of transparent code next to a +piece of opaque code demonstrates anything. + + +> +> Consider a randomly chosen paragraph from Physically Based Rendering +> (p356): +> +> To do the permutation, this function loops over the samples, randomly +> permuting the sample points in one dimension at a time. Note that this +> is a different permutation than the earlier Shuffle() routine: that +> routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each +> sample together, while here nDim separate permutations of a single +> dimension at a time are done. (Figure 7.21) +> +> for (uint32_t i = 0; i < nDim; ++1) { +> for (uint32_t j = 0; j < nSamples; ++j) { +> uint32_t other = j + (rng.RandomUInt() % (nSamples - j)); +> swap(samples[nDim + j + i], samples[nDim * other + i]); +> } +> } +> +> Footnote: While it's not necessary to permute the first dimension of +> the LHS pattern, the implementation here does so anyway since making +> the elements of the first dimension be randomly ordered means that LHS +> patterns can be used in conjunction with sampling patterns from other +> sources without danger of correlation between their sample points. +> +> So we learned what the code does. We also learned not to "optimize the +> code" by replacing it with Shuffle(). Further, we learned that we +> shouldn't "optimize the code" by removing the apparently useless +> shuffle of the first dimension. And, as a bonus, we get a figure. +> NONE OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE CODE ITSELF. +> + +For "what the code does": + +/* inline random, total, in-place matrix permutation - contrast Shuffle() */ +...code... + +The first line of commentary is totally redundant, so it is a waste of time +to read both it and the code. As for what not to "optimize": if none of +the conclusions you draw are in the code, they're not in the commentary, +either. Replacing the code with Shuffle would change the meaning from +total to partial permutation, so it would not be an optimization. Ditto +for replacing it with Shuffle. But the explanation of the difference +between this code and Shuffle is unhelpful to me - what does "[the Shuffle] +routine does one permutation, keeping all nDim sample points in each sample +together" mean? I'd have to read that code to find out, so the commentary +has just wasted my time. As for the permutation of the first dimension, +here the commentary is bad again - first it says it is not necessary, then +it explains that it is necessary if you want to use it for a specific +purpose. As for the figure, I assume the book has some kind of graphic. I +don't think I need a graphic to understand the code - it's a simple +permutation. + +So for me at least, this example counts against rather than for the point +that (I assume) you want to make. The point I will make is not that +documentation is inherently evil - far from it - but merely that +explanatory prose is not a *necesssary* condition of readable code. And it +often makes things worse, as in this case. + + +> +> In addition, this code lives in an organizing structure. It is +> in Chapter 7: Sampling and Reconstruction +> Section 7.3: Stratified Samples +> +> +> Heck, it is only 4 lines of C++. Why bother? *I* can read C++. I can +> even reverse engineer it (probably by inventing the diagram in Figure +> 2.7 on a napkin). Maybe it lives in the src/SamRecon/StratSam, which is +> all the organization necessary. :-) But I can't reverse engineer the +> important information in either paragraph of text. +> +> For comparison, refer back to the multi-page Java code I posted +> from the Clojure core. As a maintenance programmer, which would you +> rather maintain? +> + +Really? What's the point of comparing 4 lines of C++ and multiple pages of +Java? I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +the largely useless commentary. I would also rather maintain a +(well-written) plain Pascal version of "Printing the primes" than the LP +version Knuth uses in his paper on LP (a web search will turn up a preprint +copy). + +... snip ... + +Languages come into fashion all the time. Almost all of them disappear. +> Axiom and Clojure are worthwhile efforts. We really need a mindset that +> extends into the future, communicating with the maintainers. +> + +Dunno anything about Axiom, I'm afraid. As for the future, I think it is +best served by doing our best to write clear *code* now. You mentioned +Axiom has a 30 year timeline. I won't be surprised if humans do relatively +little hands-on coding (or code reading) by then. Between AI and automated +reasoning (for which the commentary part of LP is irrelevant) I expect the +number of programmer jobs to shrink drastically by then. + +In any case, I wish you luck with your Clojure internals project. If XML +doesn't give you the hives check out +https://github.com/mobileink/xsl.clj-ext - I think it could be used to good +effect to document the APIs, if not the internals, by example. + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 11:40:24 +0200 +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +On 05/22/2014 11:21 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote: +> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +> the largely useless commentary. + +That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +into any programming language. + +foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == + if a > 0 then + if a > b then return foo(b,a) + return foo(b-a,a)) + return b + +Question: Does the program have a bug? + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:29:11 +0200 (CEST) +From: Fabio Stumbo +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +>> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +>> the largely useless commentary. +> +> That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +> into any programming language. +> +> foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == +> if a > 0 then +> if a > b then return foo(b,a) +> return foo(b-a,a)) +> return b +> +> Question: Does the program have a bug? +> +> Ralf + +Yes: there is an extra parenthesis in the fourth line... :) + +Which, BTW, I discovered as soon as I pasted it in a file since +it was error-highlighted by the syntax highlighting in vim :)) + +A part from this, I think the example points out that perhaps we can make +a difference between source code of axiom (as a piece of software) and +implementation of (higher) mathematics: maybe the need for a +complete and thorough documentation can be considered of different +importance in the two cases. + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:40:11 +0200 +From: Ralf Hemmecke +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication +Cc: Marshall Abrams, Gregg Reynolds + +On 05/22/2014 03:29 PM, Fabio S. wrote: +>>> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +>>> the largely useless commentary. +>> +>> That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +>> into any programming language. +>> +>> foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == +>> if a > 0 then +>> if a > b then return foo(b,a) +>> return foo(b-a,a)) +>> return b +>> +>> Question: Does the program have a bug? +>> +>> Ralf +> +> Yes: there is an extra parenthesis in the fourth line... :) +> +> Which, BTW, I discovered as soon as I pasted it in a file since it was +> error-highlighted by the syntax highlighting in vim :)) + +Well, you caught me, so I try again. ;-) +And... the problem is be no means specific to AXIOM. + +foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == + if a > 0 then + if a > b then return foo(b,a) + return foo(b-a,a) + return b + +Question: Does the program have a bug? + +> A part from this, I think the example points out that perhaps we can +> make a difference between source code of axiom (as a piece of software) +> and implementation of (higher) mathematics: maybe the need for a +> complete and thorough documentation can be considered of different +> importance in the two cases. + +Sorry, I don't get the difference. + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:00:28 +0000 +From: Doug Stewart +To: Ralf Hemmecke +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication +Cc: Marshall Abrams, Gregg Reynolds + +I think that your question is related to the fact that if we don't +know the purpose of a function then we cannot know if there is a bug +in the function.And LP would explain the purpose of the function. + +I am 100% in agreement with LP. + +when I was teaching C C++ I was always repeating to my students that +when you comment a line or section of code "don't tell me the this +code copies the value in y to x (x=y) but tell me why that section of +code is there." + +I think that one of the posters is really missing the point of proper +documentation when he said that the comments are useless because +he can always read the code. The comments are not there to explain +what the code does on that low of a level=2C but why is it there and +what is its overall purpose and why I did it that way and not some +other way. + +Just my 2 cents worth. + +PS I have many chunks of code that I wrote 20-30 years ago and I have +no idea why and what the code was written for!!!! even after reading +each line of the code!!!! + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 19:25:13 +0200 (CEST) +From: Fabio Stumbo +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +... +>> And... the problem is be no means specific to AXIOM. +>> +>> foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == +>> if a > 0 then +>> if a > b then return foo(b,a) +>> return foo(b-a,a) +>> return b +>> +>> Question: Does the program have a bug? +>> +> +> I think that your question is related to the fact that if we don't know +> the purpose of a function then we cannot know if there is a bug in the +> function.And LP would explain the purpose of the function. +... + +My thought is that things are a little more complicated: you should +explain both the purpose of the function and how it is implemented. + +In this case, a little change in the "how" creates the problem: Ralf's +function is clearly an implementation of the original (and +inefficient) euclidean algorithm from the "Elements". +Yet it gives wrong results, since he changed deliberately domain and +codomain; for example, if a<0 then simply foo(a,b)=b. + +The point is that the proof in the Elements assumes that a,b are PI. +So to have a function without bugs either we need to change the domain to +PIxPI or we need to add two auxiliary variables +c:=abs(a) +d:=abs(b) +and then we work with them. + +This is what I meant when talking about documenting maths: it can look +correct from a syntactic point of view and can compile correctly, yet the +result can be wrong. If the underlying math is advanced, the debugging is +complicated by the fact that not a lot of people have the necessary +knowledge to track the function and find the error: if it is not well +documented, probably nobody will do it. + +> Just my 2 cents worth. + +and these are just mine... + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT) +From: Tim Daly +To: Gregg Reynolds +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +Forward from Ralf Hemmecke: + + +On 05/22/2014 11:21 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote: +> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without +> the largely useless commentary. + +That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it +into any programming language. + +foo(a: Integer, b: Integer): Integer == + if a > 0 then + if a > b then return foo(b,a) + return foo(b-a,a)) + return b + +Question: Does the program have a bug? + +Ralf + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:46:51 -0400 +From: Tim Daly +To: Doug Stewart +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +>PS I have many chunks of code that I wrote 20-30 years ago and I have no +>idea why and what the code was written for!!!! even after reading each +>line of the code!!!! + +This is what got me interested in literate programming. + +Axiom was written at IBM as "research code", mostly by people trying to +get a PhD. I wrote bits and pieces of the internals but didn't bother +to document anything, especially since I write "dirt simple code". + +Fifteen years later I'm looking at my own code. I know what it does. +I can even tell you what bytes the compiler will lay down in memory. +I know the code is needed since the system fails if I remove it. + +But I have no clue WHY I wrote it. + +The person who wrote the code failed to communicate with the person +who maintains the code. I have the misfortune of being both people. + +I understand the strong opposition to writing good documentation at any +level. Especially when writing code; it just seems wasteful to "state +the obvious". + +One non-obvious side effect of doing literate programming is that the +code quality improves a LOT. As Bill Hart said: + + Another thing I've been enjoying lately is literate programming. + Amazingly it turns out to be faster to write a literate program + than an ordinary program because debugging takes almost no time. + +I fear that we're going to have the same approach as the physicists. +"New theories get accepted when the previous generation dies out." + +Fortunately statistics show that programmers retire into management +at age 35 so we won't have to wait that long. If there is any justice, +the managers will have to hire noobs to maintain code they wrote so +they get to listen to the noobs trash talk about their code. :-) + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 12:18:44 -0700 (PDT) +From: Marshall Abrams +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication +Cc: Gregg Reynolds + +Tim, + +Your project of LP'ing the Clojure internals is not at all inconsistent +with my view. That is code that would benefit from being widely +understood, even by people who won't maintain it. I learned a lot from +reading the "Lions" book on an early version of Unix, even though I +probably never even used hardware old enough to run it. (On the other +hand, I'm not sure that there should be documentation that explains the +complexities of the chunking mechanism both at the definitions of `map` and +`doseq`, for example. That seems redundant. Maybe LP software has +convenient ways of dealing with that sort of issue, though.) + +And I agree that won't can't know what code will live for 25 years, and +what won't, and how many people will have to maintain the code. So one +approach is simply to assume that all code will live a long time and be +maintained by many people, many of whom will be unfamiliar with the code. +But that means that you waste a lot of time on code that gets put aside +(for reasons other than lack of documentation). + +Yeah, there are tradeoffs. We have to make our best judgments. + +One option: Write with whatever documentation you think will help the +code's forseen uses. Then, if you discover later, that it needs better +documentation, write it then. That won't be as easy as writing it in the +first place: In hindsight, it's less efficient, but it may be more +efficient overall across all projects. (i.e. one "faults in" the +documentation: It's sometimes most efficient to allocate all of an +executable's image and heap as soon it runs, but modern OSes instead often +allocate memory only as needed, which, in hindsight, is less efficient, but +overall, makes for a more efficient system.) + +(I think I am the "Gary" mentioned above, although that isn't my name. But +I'm happy to take on that name in this discussion.) + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:20:39 -0700 (PDT) +From: Marshall Abrams +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:05:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Johnson wrote: +> +> Hi folks, +> +> I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've +> posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one +> until now). +> + +I cede the name "Gary" to Gary. + + +> But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening +> to people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above. +> + +For my part, I have never intended to criticize LP per se. When it sounds +as if someone is arguing that everyone should use LP all the time (or +something similar), I sometimes object. + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:48:56 -0700 (PDT) +From: Gary Johnson +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +On Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:20:39 PM UTC-4, Mars0i wrote: +> +> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:05:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Johnson wrote: +>> +>> Hi folks, +>> +>> I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've +>> posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one +>> until now). +>> +> +> I cede the name "Gary" to Gary. +> + +No worries. You can be Gary too if you'd like. It's a passable name, all +things considered. ;-) + + +> +> +>> But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening +>> to people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above. +>> +> +> For my part, I have never intended to criticize LP per se. When it sounds +> as if someone is arguing that everyone should use LP all the time (or +> something similar), I sometimes object. +> + +Hey, point taken. I'm certainly not out to force LP on anyone. I'm just +here to soak up advice from the folks who have been using it for awhile. +I'm happy keeping the kool-aid to myself, so to speak. :-P + +\start +Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:05:58 -0700 (PDT) +From: Gary Johnson +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Heidegger, literate programming, and communication + +Hi folks, + + I suspect I'm the Gary that Tim thought he was referring to since I've +posted on several of his other LP-related threads (though not this one +until now). I'm reading along and enjoying the back and forth as usual, but +I'm sorry to say that I don't have much to add to this philosophical +swordfight. + + As I've stated on other threads, I find LP quite useful to me, both in +helping me remember later what my old code does (and WHY I wrote it that +way in the first place) as well as helping me to write clearer and more +parsimonious code in the first place (since I don't want to document a +crazy web of unnecessary complexity if I can avoid it). All in all, my +personal LP journey has been an interesting and reasonably productive one. +And of course, using an expressive functional language like Clojure does +allow me to keep my code snippets shorter and more isolated from one +another. All good things for LP as well. + + I know that Tim likes to poke the mailing list occasionally and remind +people that LP is the bee's knees and that they should really get on board +with it. I also know that without fail one or more folks will quickly +respond that LP doesn't provide enough value above docstrings, inline +comments, autogenerated API docs, and the occasional blog post to invest +the necessary time in developing new LP-mindful workflows. And, of course, +someone will inevitably chime in with the rally cry "clear code doesn't +need documentation". + + I understand that really embracing LP does require relearning how to +program in several fundamental respects, AND it makes it quite difficult to +use many of the developer tools many folks in the Clojure community have +come to rely on. This makes the task appear somewhere between challenging +and onerous to many programmers (or so I would imagine from following Tim's +threads over the past year). However, (speaking only for myself here) I +think the maintenance benefits often outweigh the upfront investment for +any piece of software I intend to keep around for more than a few months. +So for me, it's a net good. For some folks it's not. I get that. Enough +said. + + But really, at the end of the day, I'm just getting tired of listening to +people razzing on LP for the reasons listed above. There ARE good tools out +there for doing this kind of programming. People just have to invest time +and energy into learning them. I regularly cite Emacs' Org-mode as +providing most everything you might need to comfortably create LP programs +without even writing one line of LaTeX or XML (if you're allergic to those +languages). Obviously, as Tim points out, it's an almost trivial assignment +to roll your own tangle and weave scripts in whatever language you like +(and I've tried that route too). So guys, if you don't like the ideas +behind LP or just feel like it is too much of a hassle to use, then I +completely understand that you don't want to use it. But could we maybe +call a truce on this mailing list on the topic? + + Perhaps instead of constantly being pulled into philosophical arguments, +those of us who actually do enjoy exploring LP could then use this forum to +discuss amongst ourselves what tools or references we are finding useful in +our journey. Clearly some folks (Gregg included) are churning out some +pretty neat looking tools to make LP easier to do in the Clojure world. I +for one would love to see more lively discussion around that and not feel +like we're just bear-baiting whenever we mention the forbidden paradigm of +Literate Programming. + + My 2c, + ~ (the actual) Gary + +\start +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 04:00:50 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness +Cc: Douglas Troeger + +One of Axiom's project goals involves proofs of the computational +mathematics. + +In plan, but not yet attacked, is the question of proving Axiom. +Axiom claims to be "computational mathematics", after all. + +This raises a lot of thought bubbles, but most interesting to me at +the moment is what the goal means. There seems to be several +interpretations and my shower committee (i.e. what I mutter to myself +about in the shower) seems unfocused. The top level question is: + + What would it mean to prove Axiom correct? + +The first interpretation is computational. + +The second interpretation is mathematical. + +The third interpretation is both computational and mathematical. + +Consider these in order. From a computational point of view Axiom is a +big lisp program. It implements a domain specific language called Spad +which compiles to lisp programs. ACL2 [0] is ideal for proving +programs at this level. ACL2 is also a lisp program and could easily be +co-resident with Axiom in a lisp image. Models can be defined and +proved to have certain properties. The lisp code could be decorated +with theorems and lemmas. This would make it possible to bring much +more rigor to the implementation. It provides an opportunity to define +a model for interpreting and compiling Spad which can be used to check +the implementation. + +>From a mathematical point of view, Axiom is an implementation of +abstract-algebra-like categories and domains. One could consider +decorating the Spad algebra code with axioms (e.g. the abelian +group axioms) and theorems. COQ [1] seems ideal for proving Spad +code at some level of abstraction. Of course, Spad's view of +algebra differs somewhat from the abstract algebra scaffold. +Proving an algorithm (e.g. finding primes) over all possible +domains is really a non-trivial task. + +>From a computational and mathematical point of view, there is what +I call the "kittens" problem, as in, "it is kittens all the way down" +(cause, yaknow, the internet doesn't like turtles). What does it mean +to prove something in Axiom? Is doesn't seem sufficient to prove that +the interpreter/compiler provide a correct translation of Spad. Nor +does it seem sufficient to prove that a Spad domain properly preserves +the commutative property. + +What I'd like to achieve (and, given that we are just starting toward +a 30 year horizon we have plenty of time), is some confidence that +Axiom programs can be used with some reasonable degree of assurance +that it does what it says on the tin. At the moment, computational +mathematics seems to "float" on nothing. + +I am deeply unhappy with the current state of the art. The current +state makes it hard for a computer scientist to see where the +interpreter/compiler needs work. The current state makes it hard for a +mathematician to see where integration needs work. That we are decades +into the collision of mathematics and computers yet have no standards +of proof is, to my mind, unacceptable. + +The computer scientist side of me wants some form of non-computational +model of the interpreter/compiler. The mathematician side of me wants +some convergence of the algebra and mathematics. + +We can do better. In fact, any attempt at all would be better. +Even if nothing were formally proved I'm sure the side-effect would +be a better, more trustworthy Axiom, which is a worthwhile goal. + +Nobody wants their "Ph.D recalled" due to a bug in Axiom. :-) + +Excelsior! +Tim Daly + +[0] Kaufmann, Matt; Moore, J Strother + ACL2 Version 6.4 + http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~moore/acl2 + +[1] various + The Coq Proof Assistant + http://coq.inria.fr + +\start +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 15:28:12 +0100 +From: Martin Baker +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + +Tim, + +Yes, I think it would be really good if Axiom could live up to its name +and include axioms. + +It seems to me that categories in Axiom are mostly about function +signatures (I know I'm vastly oversimplifying here) but they would be +more like the mathematical concepts they represent if they included axioms? + +Are you talking about two different types of capability here: +* Proof Assistants like 'Coq' or 'Isabelle'. +* Algebraic Specification Languages like 'CASL'. +Does ACL2 fit into this distinction? + +So I'm thinking that proof assistance are based on rules and driven by +human input and algebraic Specification Languages are based on axioms +and provide some level of automatic checking, although I guess there is +some overlap? + +I get the impression that Axiomatic systems are problematic in that a +single error allows you to prove anything (true=false) and, as you have +pointed out to me, rule based systems are difficult to debug. + +Even so, I think that the addition of axioms into categories would be a +big benefit, even it it was only initially used for human readers and +some automated checking. + +The choice of what rules to call axioms may be arbitrary but there are +all sorts of choices that have to be made when supporting an algebra, +like notation and which algorithm to use, which don't follow +automatically from the mathematics. + +> What would it mean to prove Axiom correct? + +I get the impression that, at some level a computer program is only an +approximation to mathematics (float approximates to reals and so on). +Issues with proving code(algorithms) - 'halting problem'. Despite these +limits to a complete proof of the whole program, there is a lot that can +be done at a higher level if axioms were included in the program. + +So I think this sort of capability would be really good, I'm just too +impatient to wait 30 years. + +\start +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 18:26:34 +0200 (CEST) +From: Waldek Hebisch +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + +Tim Daly wrote: +> +> One of Axiom's project goals involves proofs of the computational +> mathematics. +> +> In plan, but not yet attacked, is the question of proving Axiom. +> Axiom claims to be "computational mathematics", after all. +> +> This raises a lot of thought bubbles, but most interesting to me at +> the moment is what the goal means. There seems to be several +> interpretations and my shower committee (i.e. what I mutter to myself +> about in the shower) seems unfocused. The top level question is: +> +> What would it mean to prove Axiom correct? + + +That is pretty clear: there is algebra, there is interpreter there is +compiler. For algebra one needs to specify what each function is +supposed to do and prove it. There are well-known notations for +specifications and proofs, for example Hoare triples. Proof rules +depend on language used, but from point of view of proofs Spad is +quite conventianal imperative language, with a little syntatic sugar +for few constructs, so writing proof rules for Spad is not hard. Spad +supports rich values (arrays, lists, functions, types), so axiom for +values will require work. Then one needs to prove compiler correct, +for this one needs specify meaning of output. If the output is Lisp, +we need proof rules for Lisp, and we need to prove that proof rules +used for algebra are satisfied. Finally we need some specification +for interpreter and we need to prove that interpreter satisfies this +specification. + +The real question is how to do this. Several years ago my student did +"by hand" a proof in Hoare logic of a simple 20 line long program. +The proof is 20 pages long. The proof is rather detailed, but he +consided some facts as known and some readers probably would ask +questions demanding more details. While this is small sample it +clearly shows that doing proofs by hand is huge task and we are +unlikely to ever have needed resources. Obvious answer lies in +automation. But even with automation this is still large task: the L4 +operation system kernel is clained to be proved correct with +mechanically verifed proof. But that required about 8 lines of proof +annotations per line of executable code. For me this is still too big +to even start. IMO proving correctness will be reasible with better +proof assistants. And there are signs that such assistants may appear +pretty soon (there was large progress in last few years). + +Let me repeat: it is not a question of what a proof is. Already +Turing around 1946 gave apropriate notion of proof. The question is +how. + +BTW: Some people want proof to have be "certain" that progam works. +Of course to get valid conclusion we would have to prove lower layers. +I consider this out of scope, but you may wish to prove that Lisp +implementation is correct in terms of machine instructions and that +logic of processor correctly implements machine level. We would also +like to have some assurance that gates do what they are supposed to +do. Now, correctenss of gates is physics, not math. Correctness of +processor is rather hard to establish, because internal design is kept +secret. But above what proof means is clear and methods are known -- +it is "only" problem of huge effort needed for such work. + +\start +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 14:15:25 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: Waldek Hebisch +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + +Waldek, + +>The real question is how to do this. Several years ago +>my student did "by hand" a proof in Hoare logic of a simple 20 +>line long program. The proof is 20 pages long. The proof +>is rather detailed, but he consided some facts as known +>and some readers probably would ask questions demanding +>more details. + +Was this proof published anywhere? Do you have a URL? + +\start +Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 10:08:23 +0800 +From: Jia Zhao Cong +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + +I have some experience with ACL2, ACL2 uses a very small subset +of common lisp, there are no side effects and no higher order +functions, although Axiom is written in a pretty small subset of CL, it +will be very difficult or require unimaginable mount of work to prove +"the Spad compiler is correct" (this Axiom implementation of Spad +language compiler agrees with Spad language specification). + +As for the second interpretation, I am not familiar with Coq. I can +only mention about PVS [1], a common lisp theorem prover but +unlike ACL2 which is first-order and weak typing, PVS and Coq are +high-order and strong typing. But I am not familiar with PVS either. + +[1] PVS http://pvs.csl.sri.com/ + +\start +From: Tim Daly +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 22:30:12 -0500 +To: Jia Zhao Cong +Subject: [Axiom-developer] PVS + +Thanks. I had not heard of PVS but I will look into it. + +I have used ACL2 in the distant past and will have to get up +to speed on it again. I've downloaded and built the latest version. + +I know that ACL2 is not capable of handling a Spad compiler but one +has to start somewhere. The important point, in my mind, is the focus +on some sort of proof in the long term. We really need to have a +higher standard for computational mathematics, and, as they say, +"If not us, who? If not now, when?". + +Matt Kaufmann and J Moore have always been quite helpful in the +past. I suspect they would be interested in any work we do in +this area. + +\start +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 22:39:41 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: Waldek Hebisch +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + +>This was "Master Thesis", unpublished and in Polish. This +>is work that students are supposed to do to get finish +>their study and get Master degree. Most of the work +>presents material from literature, the proof is original. +>I can send you a .ps file if you want. + +My command of English is marginal at best. I'm sure that a +thesis written in Polish would exceed my abilities. Thanks +anyway. + +If your student referenced any interesting work in English +in the bibliography I'd appreciate the reference. I think I +need to research a range of existing work. + +\start +Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 22:47:10 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + + "The society of scientists, the community of scientists, has + this advantage, that from the moment we enter it, we all know + that fifty years from now, most of the things we learned here + will turn out not to have been quite right." + + -- Jacob Bronowski, Silliman lectures, Yale 1967 + +\start +Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 12:38:51 -0500 +From: daly@axiom-developer.org +To: Waldek Hebisch +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Computational Mathematics, proofs, and correctness + +Waldek, + +Thanks for the references. +Oddly, many of them are from my graduate course :-) + +\start +Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 00:01:43 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: Lawrence Bottorff +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Books versus "Tunneling" + +Lawrence, + +I copied portions of your email to the mailing list along with my +reply. I hope you don't mind. + +>I just watched your talk "Literate Programming in the Large" on YouTube. +>I've been investigating literate programming for a bit now, and I've come +>up with a term for non-literate programming: I call it "tunneling." Imagine +>you're a programmer doing your regular programming thing, writing code all +>the live-long day -- and not doing it in any sort of literate way. I say +>that's the same as some mole or miner digging a tunnel. Either the tunnel +>collapses right behind the mindless digger diggings -- or the software is +>actually used and the tunnel doesn't collapse right away, i.e., there's +>traffic in the tunnel. For example, Windows XP is a big, wide tunnel . . . +>that is now beginning to rapidly collapse. Soon enough there will maybe be +>a depression in the ground. "XP was down there." So yes, eventually all +>non-literate software is just so much tunneling that eventually collapses. +>You might argue that "open source" software is not such a tunnel. Maybe. +>But who reads code besides a very rare few? And like you said in your talk, +>code is notoriously difficult to fathom, especially if some "153" crops up. + +Actually, you're the second quote on Axiom's documentation page. See +http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/documentation.html + +>A well-written book, on the other hand, is at the very least a dialogue +>with yourself. Consider what I've done in the past: SQL database. I +>typically would crank around with SQL snippets until I got the database +>where I wanted it, or some output/report generated. But all the steps I had +>taken were lost! Better it would have been if I had been typing an "SQL +>blog" with the SQL code embedded in the text where I describe my process. +>"Dear diary. . ." + +I don't know if a diary is the best analogy. The best book I've seen +so far is Pharr and Humphreys' "Physically Based Rendering". It contains +all the source code, properly explains the theory, and is exceptionally +well cross-referenced and indexed. The BOOK won an academy award. If +you haven't seen it, buy it. Believe me, you'll be amazed. + +I have to say, they have really "raised the bar" of what I expect a +good literate program to be. They explain the theory, show the math, +and have numerous diagrams. Axiom has a new standard of excellence. + +If Axiom were documented as well as the Pharr/Humphreys book I am +certain that it would be used to teach computational mathematics at +both undergraduate and graduate levels. I can even see a sub-department +of "computational mathematics". There is, of course, the minor detail +of actually documenting the system :-) + +Greg Humphreys, one of the authors, and Paul C. Agnostopoulos, the +author of zzTek, which is the tool used, have both given me the +tooling they used to create the book. I hope to use at least some of +it in Axiom. Paul formats books professionally (windfall.com). + + + + + + +>I so much agree with you about literate programming. I don't get much +>buy-in; many think I'm just a crackpot. Alas, but I think it's the real +>wave of the future. A book is meant to be read. Coding is just tunneling. +>Think of all the ga-zillions of lines of code that is buried in all those +>tunnels! + +Yeah. There is a saying in physics. "New theories are accepted once the +previous generation dies". John Kitchin at CMU is teaching the new +generation to write literate programs. Once everyone over 30 dies we +can flush all the non-literate, abandoned piles of code in github, +sourceforge, savannah, etc. and get on with the business of +communication. + +At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it :-) + + + + + +>Two questions: Have you ever seen the outline style Buckminster Fuller used +>in "Synergetics?" Each outline point makes fairly self-contained statement. +>Here's the table of contents: + +No, I haven't seen that book. I'll put it on the queue. Thanks. + + + + + +>And, have you seen Emacs org-mode? It has a built-in literate capability. + +I sat in on Kitchin's class where he is teaching students using literate +programming. He is using org-mode. + +It was really interesting in that NOBODY was taking notes. Not a single +pen or piece of paper anywhere. No typing on their laptops. John taught +from his emacs buffer, displayed on an overhead. Everything he taught +was in the buffer. He could execute code, update tables, show graphs. +He could edit changes into the document based on student questions. + +At the end of class, all students had the latest set of notes and +all of the executable code already on their laptops. He is working to +spread this kind of teaching across all of the compsci, math, chemE, +and other departments. Frankly, I think it changes the game but I'm +already a convert. + + + +>Also, I'm using Ubuntu and I see there is an "axiom" and an "open-axiom" in +>the package manager. Which do I want? Or should I just grab it from the +>site? + +Axiom is this project. Executables are available at +http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/download.html + +If you want to compile and/or develop Axiom system code there are +instructions of which packages to apt-get. + +\start +Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 12:12:29 -0500 +From: Tim Daly +To: list +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Axiom and proofs + +I picked up two books that seem to be useful in the task of trying +to prove at least one algorithm in Axiom "correct", for some +philosophical version of correct. + +I'd really like to show an automated proof of Axiom's GCD algorithm. +Pointers to published work on GCD proofs would be really useful. + +Yves and Pierre [0] has a whole chapter on "Infinite Objects and +Proofs" with a section on co-inductive types (streams, lazy lists, +lazy binary trees). + +Chandy and Misra [1] has a section on prime number generation by sieving. + +Suggestions of other reading material is most welcome. + +[0] Bertot, Yves; Casteran, Pierre + "Interactive Theorem Proving and Program Development" + ISBN 3-540-20854-2 + +[1] Chandy, Mani ; Misra, Jayadev + "Parallel Program Design" + ISBN 0-201-05866-9 + + diff --git a/changelog b/changelog index 5cfd309..9d562e3 100644 --- a/changelog +++ b/changelog @@ -1,3 +1,5 @@ +20140610 tpd src/axiom-website/patches.html 20140610.03.tpd.patch +20140610 tpd book/*.txt email cleanup 20140610 tpd src/axiom-website/patches.html 20140610.02.tpd.patch 20140610 tpd src/doc/msgs/s2-us.msgs remove .as extension from compiler msg 20140610 tpd src/axiom-website/patches.html 20140610.01.tpd.patch diff --git a/src/axiom-website/patches.html b/src/axiom-website/patches.html index 767f46b..774ae4d 100644 --- a/src/axiom-website/patches.html +++ b/src/axiom-website/patches.html @@ -4412,6 +4412,8 @@ books/bookvol10.4 fix ++X function example in gcd books/bookvolbib add reference Yapp07 20140610.02.tpd.patch src/doc/msgs/s2-us.msgs remove .as extension from compiler msg +20140610.03.tpd.patch +book/*.txt email cleanup